March 3

Dave Mattson, CEO at Sandler on Building a Kick-Ass Sales Team

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Sandler Training (@SandlerTraining) named Dave Mattson (@Dave_Mattson) its CEO in 2007. During his years as CEO, revenue from the company’s Global Accounts Division has increased by 53 percent, international revenue by more than 145 percent and total company revenue by 35 percent. Business remained stable through the recent recession and, in fact, experienced an increased profit margin.

Dave Mattson oversees the corporate direction and strategy for the company’s worldwide network of operations including sales, marketing, consulting, alliances and support. His key areas of focus are sales leadership, strategy and client satisfaction.

Under Mattson's leadership, the Sandler organization expanded domestically and internationally to over 250 offices in 32 countries around the world. He added numerous program offerings to Sandler’s training portfolio, including Enterprise Selling, Leadership, and Customer Service programs, along with Sandler Certification, the first measurable, skills-based sales certification in the industry.

Podcast Highlights:

  • Always be authentic
  • Exceptional salespeople connect the what with the why
  • Meet your customers where they are

Contact Dave:

#sales #salestraining

[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]

Umar Hameed 0:06
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone. This is Umar Hameed, your host and welcome to the No Limits Selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how to make you better, stronger, faster, get ready for another episode.

Umar Hameed 0:36
Today I have the privilege of having Dave Mattson, the President and CEO of Sandler Training. Dave, welcome to the show.

Dave Mattson 0:42
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Umar Hameed 0:44
Dave, I have studied a lot of sales, processes and techniques and Sandler, the thing I love about it, it's the most organic way to connect with human beings. And it comes down to really figuring out what's happening in the other person's world more important than what's happening in ours. So I'm really excited to start this conversation with you.

Umar Hameed 1:02
Good, I'm glad to be here.

Umar Hameed 1:04
So when did you take over as leader of the organization like what you within the organization Did you come from without.

Dave Mattson 1:10
I was actually a client.

Umar Hameed 1:12
Nice.

Dave Mattson 1:13
I'm introverted. I went to an organization, they were clients. And they said, you have to go through sales training. And I was a typical, I don't want to go there, you know. And so I was a sente. It was a hostage. And I went and realize that Sandler was basically a communication model. And it really, really gravitated towards that because it wasn't, I didn't have to be somebody I wasn't. And I could apply these proven tactics and strategies based on communication psychology, to meet myself and my own personality. And then I became their number one salesperson, because I prac...

Umar Hameed 1:47
I'm about to give you a high. five {high five]

Umar Hameed 1:49
I practice, because that's my thing. Right,

Umar Hameed 1:52
Right.

Dave Mattson 1:53
And then I went to work for an office up in Connecticut, a Sandler office. And I had the chance to see Dave Sandler at our conferences, who at By that time, I already knew he was the guy,

Umar Hameed 2:03
Right.

Dave Mattson 2:03
It's not you have to look back 10 years after and you say, you know what, that was the greatest opportunity. I should have really capitalized on that,

Umar Hameed 2:09
Right.

Dave Mattson 2:10
I knew that going into it. I went to a conference, Dave Sandler said, I'm looking for somebody to come on the staff to train the trainer's, and I'll mentor them, I'll teach them. And I just raised my hand, I looked over my hand was already up. So did

Umar Hameed 2:23
I do this?

Umar Hameed 2:23
Exactly. And I had the opportunity to come down to see and work with Dave, I became a partner 25% owner in 1994.

Umar Hameed 2:30
Nice.

Dave Mattson 2:31
I bought another 25% in 2007. And then the rest of the company in 2012.

Umar Hameed 2:37
So let's back up to that first buying. Was that through the mentorship of Dave or did you guys discuss it? or How did it come about as far as being a partner?

Dave Mattson 2:47
Yeah.I was going around the world doing boot camps for David.

Umar Hameed 2:53
Right.

Dave Mattson 2:53
First of all, I had many different jobs for David. And then I went over to Europe, had an accent, right, had The Bob Newhart

Umar Hameed 3:00
Yes.

Dave Mattson 3:01
humor when I was in London, so I naturally fit. And it was there for a couple years. And I came back and said, I was going to go back to Connecticut because we wanted to start a family. And he said, Well, would you be our partner? Because you're doing great work. We trust you. You know, there's a there's a bond here. I said, Wow. Okay. Absolutely. And the interesting thing is when I went to try to get the money because I was young,

Umar Hameed 3:23
Right.

Dave Mattson 3:23
Like 27 at the time, right?

Umar Hameed 3:26
No, banks would give me the money.

Umar Hameed 3:27
Yep.

Umar Hameed 3:28
And my family came from a very, you know, working class, their only asset was their home. And I didn't say a word, but my parents actually came to me about two months later and said, we've put the house up remortgage the house to give you the money, and it was amazing. And I just, of course, I was always, my head's always down to make sure I get stuff done. But that was added motivation for me to make sure so thoroughly and just happened to because he watched me didn't say a word. And then it was time he made that offer.

Umar Hameed 3:58
It's just amazing the love that we have for our kids and our family.

Dave Mattson 4:02
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 4:02
One of the things that really fascinates me is the people that have, how many franchisees around the world?

Dave Mattson 4:08
265.

Umar Hameed 4:10
Which is pretty amazing.

Dave Mattson 4:11
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 4:11
And the thing I love about it that a lot of these stories are similar to yours as in they came across Sandler, and were trained in it or liked it a lot and said, "Hey, I want to start my own thing. I'm going to get a franchisee," and they put down cash to make that happen.

Dave Mattson 4:25
Right.

Umar Hameed 4:26
And every day they live and breathe this stuff. Sorry, advanced copier systems but true because they're teaching it and they using those techniques to actually grow their practice their business.

Dave Mattson 4:35
Right.

Umar Hameed 4:36
So help me understand. You could have franchisee a doing a good job and we're happy that they're there. Then you got franchisee B, who's just for whatever reason is doing a spectacular job. They both train the same way they know the system intimately. What do you think's going on there? What makes one person more exceptional than than another?

Umar Hameed 4:58
Well, putting aside You know, pipeline development for a minute,

Umar Hameed 5:01
Yes.

Dave Mattson 5:02
Because we're big behavior [garbled]

Umar Hameed 5:03
Yes.

Dave Mattson 5:04
Let's assume that was the same. And the community, they're training the same. I really think it's the connection with the clients, right? Because I can be a tactician,

Umar Hameed 5:13
Yes.

Dave Mattson 5:13
And teach it. And this is what you say and how you say it. And that's okay. But if I jump into a roleplay, with you and said, This is what you should be saying, and by the way, now, let's step back, why would we do that? Why is that good for our customer? Why is that good for the other person.

Umar Hameed 5:27
Yes.

Dave Mattson 5:27
What clarity does that have for them? And why would I want to do it for yourself? And I think if you can get into each side, their head, what's going on between their ears? That's a real connection, because it's just not the what, it's the why. And I think the more successful trainers we have connect the what and the why together versus just the what.

Umar Hameed 5:46
That's brilliant, because I think that why is the motivator that gets people to do what they do. Sometimes when I'm teaching gratitude, when there's lots of like, exercise, what are you grateful for? And I am not really that enthused about, I'm grateful for my kids, what is really powerful is the because, and that's the why, right? I'm grateful, like, because they make my life worth living, or I'm grateful for whatever. And that's what you're really talking about is that why piece even if what's fascinating is, I'm not sure if you remember when you were a kid, it's a while ago, but you knew strategically, which parent to ask for a particular thing to get your way through. And so we have a really clear vision of what's going to happen. And I think just by asking that, why question. Even if we don't get 100% accurate, just by asking you get that perspective on the situation that you didn't have. If you just stayed at that tactician level?

Umar Hameed 6:37
It's true. And I guess I would ask, When do we lose the because we had it as a kid?

Umar Hameed 6:41
Yes.

Dave Mattson 6:42
Is it because we went in, we got a business card and now we're in the business community, we forget that because because I agree, even when we teach elevator pitches or 32nd commercials, what the pain indicator is, okay, fine. But because it's important to them, that's the connection. And at some point, I think we just lose the because and I'm not sure whether we've consciously just forgot about the because because it's a routine, or we've been bombarded out in the environment with the lack of becauses, and we just kind of fall into into the, you know, into line, I guess, but is the most important bridge, I believe.

Umar Hameed 7:16
And I think we're where we need to make a difference is the educational system, because I think it made a lot of sense for a time that's gone by, and our system is designed so much sit in your chair, give the answer. The way is don't communicate, don't connect this day and age with cell phones, it gives people the ability to just even distance themselves further from human beings. It's true, and I'm not sure you've seen this research, I think as far as to research was guesstimating, they're probably more accurate than guesstimate, that there's like 18 some odd million salespeople in the US. And that number is going to shrink drastically. Real estate's a good example as automation comes in, that the people that are going to have practices are the ones that have relationships with their customers, where their customers won't go anywhere else. And I think that's one of the things that we really need to teach our kids and teach our adults too, is that human connection is ultimately what it is.

Dave Mattson 8:14
I agree. And I think if we do that the trends we have we have Forrester speaking at our conference.

Umar Hameed 8:20
Oh, really?

Dave Mattson 8:21
Yeah. And and what they're saying is the majority of the sales organizations are going to shift towards a channel.

Umar Hameed 8:27
Mm hmm.

Dave Mattson 8:28
Right.

Umar Hameed 8:28
Yes.

Dave Mattson 8:28
And in the technology, the shift is to inside sales reps. SDRs.

Umar Hameed 8:32
Yes.

Dave Mattson 8:33
And they're struggling most of the time because that because isn't there. And that disengagement, if we're going to call that, which is how they grew up, you can't sell that way, especially on the phone, think about how hard is it to connect with somebody. And as if they're sitting right across from you when you're on the phone, and you never grown up that way. I mean, how many of our kids actually text each other when they're in the same household? It's amazing.

Umar Hameed 8:57
How many parents The only way they communicate with the kids is like I call them they won't call back. But if I text them, I'll get a response back.

Dave Mattson 9:04
I have five of them and that's exactly what happens. If I text they respond if I call, they seem to be busy.

Umar Hameed 9:09
And apparently there's this new thing now called voxer, which is like a walkie talkie app.

Dave Mattson 9:13
Okay.

Umar Hameed 9:13
And I've got younger clients that I work with, like, Don't text me, if you really want my attention use voxer. Like okay.

Dave Mattson 9:14
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 9:15
Today I did a video I'm gonna send you a copy of it, by the way.

Umar Hameed 9:24
Good.

Umar Hameed 9:25
This was the subject of it is once in a while you get a group of people that come together, that come together in such a way that they formed this amazing team where it's not about ego. It's not about me, it's not about my department. It's about how can I be of service of these people around the table with me to make this organization grow? And I know Sanders really focused on that cultural organizational effort, because so few companies have it. What are you guys doing to address that?

Umar Hameed 9:53
We have a program called organizational excellence, which is a roadmap a playbook for I'm going to say or entrepreneurial type companies,

Umar Hameed 10:01
Yes.

Dave Mattson 10:01
where we can control our outcomes. And maybe you're a leader of a particular division, and you still have that, but it's what do I do to better understand where I am today? And where I would like to be in the next 1,3,4 years.

Umar Hameed 10:13
Yes.

Dave Mattson 10:14
And so, you know, from a professional standpoint, but also personal. And I went through this particular program as a client.

Umar Hameed 10:20
Right.

Dave Mattson 10:21
And I was driven towards, I want Sandler to be successful, I would like this revenue. What was missing is the personal why connected to them because...

Umar Hameed 10:29
Yes.

Dave Mattson 10:29
...this is what it would do. And I realized I had to because light bulb go off. Once you have the plan, then you have to sit back and say, Okay, well, what's the, what's the org chart look like? Let's blow this up. And, you know, forget people who are here, what does it look like? And then the next stage is, where do I find the right type of people? And maybe their internal or external, but when I've got them there, how do I develop them?

Umar Hameed 10:51
Yes.

Dave Mattson 10:51
How do I do that? Right? And then we're talking about process and people shy away from process, but in my mind, it's really just playbooks. What am I going to do?

Umar Hameed 11:00
Yeah. You desperately need that it's.. Have you read the book checklist? I mean, that's a perfect example of,

Dave Mattson 11:09
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 11:10
checklists save more lives than the latest medical advances because if you don't have that process, you're going to a, you might do something wonderful. But you don't know how you did it. If you didn't have a process, and you can't improve unless you've got it kind of documented. So I think it should be seen as an tool, an asset, a utility, that without it, you're lesser than you should be.

Dave Mattson 11:30
Well, let's think about any sports team don't think process. It's called plays.

Umar Hameed 11:33
Yes.

Umar Hameed 11:34
You know, you don't get in the huddle and say okay, what are we going to do the best

Umar Hameed 11:36
creative? Yeah, exactly.

Dave Mattson 11:39
It doesn't work. And if you think about organizations that, you know, you said, You were with a group of people who were really focused on the greater good, inherently, don't we all start that way. But I think what's happened is they've grown up and realize, maybe I, I couldn't make that impact, or I've learned not to do anything, and I've kind of given up. But it's nice when you just start fresh, and say, regardless of the past, making a contribution. And it's hard to find those groups of people but when you do, you really have to grab on to it. And if you find an organization that you don't have that group, look in the mirror, if you're a leader, you can you can fix that.

Umar Hameed 12:16
In my worldview, we all have three faces, we've got this illusion that we show the outside world. So let's say I'm in a company, I'm really smart, I'm your go to person, I'm amazing, I can do anything. And then we've got this delusion of who we think we are. And you've probably met people that who they actually think they are is not what they're portraying to the outside world. And sometimes this is a very positive thing, and this is negative. And other times people go, I never get anything, right. And they just kind of like, gee, shucks, I'm not that good. But internally, it's like, I'm the best person here. And then I think there's a third place. And the third place is the authentic self. I think that's part of our journey as human beings, but especially as leaders, to really get a good sense of this is who I really am. This is what drives me, these are my deepest values. Because once you uncover that, it gives you the ability to get let go of the delusion of who we think we are, we become authentically who we are, then we become brave enough. This is what we portray to the outside world. And those people when you meet them, you just feel comfortable in their presence, because there's a level of safety and power not force on your boss is just there, and you just want to follow them wherever they lead you.

Umar Hameed 13:25
And it's congruency, isn't it?

Umar Hameed 13:26
Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Mattson 13:27
Because if you don't have that third position,

Umar Hameed 13:30
Yes.

Dave Mattson 13:31
Eventually you're gonna have leakage.

Umar Hameed 13:33
Absolutely.

Dave Mattson 13:34
What you say and what you do are two different things. And you don't even know you're doing it's a blind spot, to be honest,

Umar Hameed 13:38
Yes.

Dave Mattson 13:38
right? But I'll think about two leaders who go into a position early on, I think there is confusion of who I am and what I want people to see me as it takes time. And for whatever reason to get to that safety.

Umar Hameed 13:53
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 13:53
And you become a great leader when that occurs.

Umar Hameed 13:55
And I think that's one of the thing every single human being on planet Earth has a purpose in life, why they here and most people don't uncover that. And it's not that once we do uncover that, then it allows you to be follow a direction because purpose is not destination is a way of being in my purpose is to be a joyful educator. And when I look back at all the things I've ever done from sales, do whatever there was always a teaching component, and helping other people do better. In some jobs. It was a 20% component. And in the current job is a 100% component. So I think when leaders or people we lead uncovered a purpose, it gives them that direction they need, once they uncover who they are, it gives them the ability to bring their best selves to the team, without ego to say, Okay, what can I do to make this better and I think better is such a brilliant word. Best is sucks because we stop but better is that ongoing, continual improvement. So the question I have for you is this Sandler, the actual essence of the sale system, I suspect has not changed a lot because human beings, human beings, but Sandlers organization has and you build the needs of the current, how many decades now that Sandler has been around?

Dave Mattson 15:12
50.

Umar Hameed 15:13
50. By the way, so you guys have evolved, you know, to be relevant to your constituents. So tell me about what that thinking is like, so that you keep your finger on the pulse and you don't get caught, you know, being stuck in the old way.

Umar Hameed 15:27
A lot of different tentacles.

Umar Hameed 15:30
Yes.

Dave Mattson 15:31
We have 265 offices every single day, they're interacting with business people. And they are the greatest source of information,

Umar Hameed 15:39
Nice.

Dave Mattson 15:39
because we sell it and we manage every day. So when we're interacting with clients, we're learning an awful lot. So people learn from us but when I'm in front of a customer, I learned,

Umar Hameed 15:51
Isn't that amazing?

Dave Mattson 15:52
I have so much back.

Umar Hameed 15:54
Yes.

Dave Mattson 15:54
Right? Because I don't want to get stuck in the ego, which is, Sandler is great. We want all of words, you will change, you know, Mr. Customer, you will conform, it can't be that way. If you're going to be a subservient leader, right, you should also think about as an organization, I'm not going to have everyone conformed to the Sandler selling system, you're correct, it has not changed. But when in your 31 different countries, people see the world differently.

Umar Hameed 16:21
Oh, absolutely.

Dave Mattson 16:21
And just think about all the constituents, we've got people who don't open textbooks, right,

Umar Hameed 16:26
Yes.

Dave Mattson 16:26
so then they just take information differently, which I don't understand how you're going to learn anything in

Umar Hameed 16:30
Yup.

Dave Mattson 16:31
two and a half minutes, I don't get it. But it doesn't matter what I get. If you're going to serve the customer, and focus on...

Umar Hameed 16:38
[garbled] where they're at.

Dave Mattson 16:39
That's what you have to do, you've got to go to them, and stop forcing them to come to you. Now, you could do that but I think that business model forces you to go out of business, you have to be agile.

Dave Mattson 16:50
Absolutely. And I think that feedback loop is so critical. Just yesterday, I was talking to a guy I happen to meet who's a dog trainer loves it entrenched. And I was telling him about a friend of mine that's got a new technology to do it. And his immediate reaction was, that's not gonna work, you can't change this, you can't do that. And that might be true, but he was him imposing his worldview on something he didn't know anything about. So here's my theory on what a leader should do this three primary functions. One is to have strategically sound vision that's so compelling that people go, I want to be on that journey. The second thing is culture. How do we get our people to be selfless and come on this journey together so we create something that is, can live on past the owners tenure. And the third thing is, how do we grow the shareholder value? And we can only do that if we're great leaders, and we groom people underneath this to step up. And so how to Sandler help their clients, grow leaders. So you actually get back on our organization where the leader can focus on what's most important, because in most organizations, they dragged into operations all the time.

Umar Hameed 18:01
Sure. A couple things. Let's talk about sales leaders first,

Umar Hameed 18:04
Yes.

Dave Mattson 18:04
and then we'll go higher up. I think sales leaders are the least trained group of people in an organization because

Umar Hameed 18:09
You're good at sales, why don't you be [garbled]

Umar Hameed 18:11
Exactly and then they say, just do what you do.

Umar Hameed 18:13
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 18:13
And replicate yourself, I wish it was that easy.

Umar Hameed 18:16
Yes.

Dave Mattson 18:16
It's not that easy. So I think the first responsibility of an organization is to train your people, and help them and show them what it looks like to succeed. People learn by imitation illustration,

Umar Hameed 18:29
Yes.

Dave Mattson 18:30
So you know, show it to them. It's not it's one thing to, hey, you have to be a good coach. But give them a playbook, show them how to do it, and then reinforce it, just by doing it once I can go to the golf course, in practice once doesn't do anything.

Umar Hameed 18:43
Yes.

Dave Mattson 18:43
I mean, it has become part of my DNA, part of my life. So I think as an organization leaders, with you can create playbooks, awesome. If you can, can then be congruent and demonstrate all the things that you need to do. I think that that's a good step forward as you...

Umar Hameed 18:49
Walk your talk, because I need to be authentic.

Umar Hameed 19:03
Exactly. You know, and if you really, you know, step back and say, Okay, well, what are we doing to get there? Well, the first thing that we provide clients is a roadmap. Here is what it looks like in order for you to be a great leader, whether it's a sales leader, operational, here's the roadmap. Most people have bits and pieces. But they've also observed throughout their career, somebody that they thought did it well,

Umar Hameed 19:26
Yes.

Dave Mattson 19:26
And so in our first X amount of years, all we're doing is mimicking what we've seen. So if you can give them a roadmap and allow them the flexibility to to go within that roadmap based on the culture based on who they are, then it becomes them, not somebody else, right? That's the first thing I think. The second thing is I think we've put people together, so they're not isolated. We have groups of leaders to get together, we have groups of sales leaders that get together. Sometimes we don't see our own blind spots.

Umar Hameed 19:54
That's why God invented spouses by the way.

Umar Hameed 19:57
The greatest, they're great at that. But if I'm Looking at somebody else, and they have a problem. And it's very easy for me to be a movie star in somebody else's company.

Umar Hameed 20:05
Yes.

Dave Mattson 20:06
Right? Because I'm not emotionally involved. And so when I do that, more often times than not, I will go back and say, You know what? I should be implementing X, Y, and Z. And maybe I wasn't even involved in that conversation. But I watched it happen.

Umar Hameed 20:19
Yes.

Dave Mattson 20:20
Because observers learn more than the people that are actually in it, because we're emotionally involved.

Umar Hameed 20:24
Yes.

Dave Mattson 20:24
Right? So that's there. And I think it's, you've got to create an environment where it's not learned helplessness.

Umar Hameed 20:31
Yes.

Dave Mattson 20:32
It's self sufficiency. I think great leaders create an environment where people are self sufficient. And you give them the two Ps, which is protection and permission, you give them permission to operate within their lanes,

Umar Hameed 20:42
Yes.

Dave Mattson 20:42
explain what those are has to be clear. And you also have to give them permission to fail permission to make decisions within their lane. You know, Sam, it's the greatest thing he ever did for me,

Umar Hameed 20:54
Right.

Dave Mattson 20:54
David, here, your lanes, act as if it's your business, I give you permission to make those decisions. I also know that you're going to make some bad decisions, then the second p was protection. So he protected me if in fact, I did make bad decisions, or if people in the outside questioned my decisions, but they were within my lane. I think that sense of security allows people to grow to stick your head up above, not really, you know, not worrying that you're going to get whacked. And it's really it's awesome because now you're you're really helping people jump and they want to jump you don't drag them, they're actually pushing you to go up.

Umar Hameed 21:31
So just adding to that and getting some more clarification. I think there's lots of leaders that would say, "Alright, this is yours, go for it," that's different than what you described, like giving permission and providing protection is more of a covenant between me as a leader and you and it's more authentic. Through that foundation, you allow people to do that, to actually step up like they should. So I think people have an illusion that they're doing that.

Dave Mattson 21:57
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 21:57
But they're not. They're just giving lip service. And of course, because it wasn't authentically given when there's a problem. They're not there to have that back. They're to blame.

Umar Hameed 22:07
I yeah, I think that one of the things that I hear from a lot of leaders, when we do coaching are off to the side, I would like a culture of accountability. Would you really yeah, it comes up all the time. And they, and they really are blaming others for not doing that. But to your point, when they do give, you know, let's say this is yours, own it. That in itself doesn't do anything.

Umar Hameed 22:30
Agreed.

Dave Mattson 22:30
Yeah, you have to have clarity. You have to agree on the roadmap, you have to say, look, what support Do you need for me? Here are your areas of responsibility, here's what you can do. Here's what it looks like. And it the more you explain it. And by the way, when you talk to leaders, and you say that to them say well, they should know that that's why I've hired them.

Umar Hameed 22:46
Yes.

Dave Mattson 22:47
Okay, well, look, I should have known how to be a good parent on my first job.

Umar Hameed 22:51
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 22:51
But that's not how it works. You know, I practiced on my first one, I got better in the second, you know, even better in the third. But that's how you have to do it, that's not how humans operate. And maybe it's a, I have to sit back and wonder, is it just an easy way out for the leaders to say, well, that's who I've hired, because maybe they don't know, either. I think that's primarily the issue because they know what it's not, but they don't know what it is.

Umar Hameed 23:17
But even when you go to like management school or MBA school, they don't teach that human stuff. They teach you as more tactics. Here's the process. So I like processes and checklists. But if you don't have the right intent, and you don't know why it's happening, then you're just an automaton and why do we have you there and not someone else? And I think, but that comes down to that leader going? I don't know.

Dave Mattson 23:14
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 23:38
And I need help, in which case, I go to Sandler, I go to my Vistage coach. But as we go on, I talked about those three phases. Sometimes the illusion is, I know everything and I'm infallible. And the great leaders are like this the best way I know how, but we're figuring it out. And I like the two P's. And the only thing I'd add to it, which might be inherently there. But I think in organizations, if we get people to go, it's not only okay to ask for help, it's expected of you if you value the team, if you need help put up your hand, because in most organizations, people will do the illusion of I've got this till it gets out of hand. And I think we have that ability to know that everyone's got your back, and then...

Dave Mattson 24:22
Build it into the process.

Umar Hameed 24:23
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 24:23
Build it into the culture. I mean, even if you think, hey, you've got that. Think about the person that's on the receiving end the employee,

Umar Hameed 24:29
Yes.

Dave Mattson 24:30
They're in the first group, right? that first face, which is, this is who I need to be.

Umar Hameed 24:34
Yes.

Dave Mattson 24:35
Because what are they going to say, Hey, thanks for hiring me. Thanks for allowing me to have this responsibility. I don't know what to do.

Dave Mattson 24:42
You know, and I have a new CFO.

Umar Hameed 24:43
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 24:44
Right? And for for me, I say, Well, you know, we've heard the guidelines here, we're working on a project. And I say, when I did this, I struggled for the first three times I did it. So let's talk about what's going through your head.

Umar Hameed 24:57
Yes.

Dave Mattson 24:58
You know.

Umar Hameed 24:59
A high five for you for doing that, because I think it's conversation they need to have. And I can tell just by the way, you articulated it, this is something that you deeply mean, and the other person can feel that. And I think that is that human connection again?

Dave Mattson 25:14
Well, they're coming in all the time now and saying, Well, how would I do? What do you think about that collaboration helps both of us? And you know, and I even say, as a co CEO, I'm just brainstorming,

Umar Hameed 25:24
Yes.

Dave Mattson 25:25
this is only an opinion.

Umar Hameed 25:26
Yes.

Dave Mattson 25:26
I'm not dictating, you know, ultimately, you know, we'll come up..

Umar Hameed 25:29
Let's do let's be scientists and see the results we get, if we got a process, we can figure out what we need to change and we get better as we go. And if you're doing it at the C-level, then it gives permission to the middle management to, to follow suit, because they're going to model whatever you guys are doing.

Dave Mattson 25:44
Exactly.

Umar Hameed 25:45
And what they do. A lot of organizations, the leader, or the C-suite, go on a retreat with an amazing instructor or facilitator and they come back with these newfangled ideas that they distribute, but they don't walk their talk or and what people say in the organization is, keep your head down, this too shall pass.

Dave Mattson 26:03
This too shall pass. Operation Delta, just

Umar Hameed 26:06
Yeah.

Dave Mattson 26:06
shut up. It'll be gone by June.

Umar Hameed 26:09
Dave, I wish we could go on longer, this is a fascinating conversation. Before we go, I'm gonna ask you to be vulnerable, as a leader, what's your next thing that you're trying to learn and what's your biggest fear? Like, I want to make sure that as an as a leader, that I pay attention to this so we're on a lift for another 50 years?

Dave Mattson 26:32
Biggest fear professionally or personally?

Umar Hameed 26:34
Whichever way you want to take that.

Dave Mattson 26:35
I think the biggest fear for us is to remain nimble, because the technology is changing all the time. I'm not just competing with other training companies. Now I'm competing with technology companies.

Umar Hameed 26:46
Yes.

Dave Mattson 26:46
Exactly. And technology, and that worries me because that's a undefined landscape for me. You know, next thing you know, I'm we trained LinkedIn, but now I'm competing with LinkedIn.

Umar Hameed 26:58
Yes.

Dave Mattson 26:58
Where did that pop up, ight? Where did that happen from? So I think that that's my biggest fear is to stay relevant in an environment that is just changing and I lightspeed

Umar Hameed 27:09
I love that word, relevance. And the second thing, what do you want to learn, like, what's your learning for the next year that you're focusing on to be a better leader?

Dave Mattson 27:20
Is really to slow down. I've been in the left lane now for seven to 10 years, completely transforming the organization. And I know in my heart of hearts, I'm not connecting with the trainers as often as I did,

Umar Hameed 27:35
Yes.

Dave Mattson 27:35
I'm not connecting with the customers as often as I did. And I know it, it's not a self awareness issue. I've rationalized it that I am. I have no time, but I have the time. And so I literally what I've done is looking forward to that brought people in to do more of the operational things. So I can do more of the business, you know, building the business, but also building the relationships that made us great in that culture.

Umar Hameed 27:59
How do you stay tuned, keep your finger on the pulse be relevant,

Dave Mattson 28:03
Yeah.

Umar Hameed 28:03
and be focused, and live in integrity.

Dave Mattson 28:06
Exactly.

Umar Hameed 28:07
Dave, thanks so much.

Dave Mattson 28:08
My pleasure.

Umar Hameed 28:13
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitsselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of Neuro-Linguistic Programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.


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