Trevor has over 35 years of business experience at senior manager / director level. He combines his knowledge, ideas and enthusiasm to help his clients deliver better, more successful presentations that will ultimately help them win more sales.
Trevor also ‘fill’s a gap’ for businesses that don’t have a sales director, helping them grow their revenues by working with them and their teams virtually for the equivalent of two days a month.
Every Monday Trevor broadcasts the ‘Better Presentations More Sales Podcast’ - he also has a second podcast ‘Running 44@60’ which is tracking his progress to a 44 mile off road ultra marathon in May 2021.
[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]
Umar Hameed 0:01
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone! My name is Umar Hameed, I'm your host on the No Limits Selling Podcast where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how you can become better, stronger, faster. Just before we get started, I've got a question for you, do you have a negative voice inside your head? We all do, right? I'm gonna help you remove that voice and under 30 days guaranteed, not only remove it, but transform it. So instead of the voice that sabotages you, there's one that propels you to much higher levels of performance and success. There's a link in the show notes, click on it to find out more. All right! Let's get started.
Umar Hameed 0:40
Hello everyone. Today I had the pleasure of having Trevor Lee. He's all the way in the UK. He runs a company Trevor Lee Media, and he's an expert at how to do presentations that generate sales. Trevor, welcome to the program.
Trevor Lee 0:54
Umar, it's fantastic to be here. Great to see you again.
Umar Hameed 0:57
Oh, pleasure seeing you. I was on your podcast a little while ago, it was such fun. So we're in the UK are you?
Trevor Lee 1:04
Well, I'm in a place called Cornwall, which if anyone's listening to this show, and has ever been on holiday in the UK, then Cornwall may well be one of the places they would have looked out for. So in the very southwest tip of the UK out the way of everybody else.
Umar Hameed 1:18
Brilliant. I remember living in London and going all the way to the beach. And it was like a kind of a miserable experience compared to Mexico, similar, more exotic, but hey, when you live in the UK, you take what you get. So I'm glad we're having this conversation because, so let me tell you a story, I was in front of a large group of sales managers and I said, "Okay, this is the sales process, as I know it plus or minus, getting the appointment, doing the presentation, handling the objections, closing the sale and deepening into the account to get more referrals. Is that plus or minus, correct?" They said, "Yes, that's correct". Where do salespeople struggle the most, that stops them from gaining the sales that they want and they said getting appointments, not enough appointments means not enough sales, and actually closing the sales was another area. But one that often gets neglected, because we take it for granted is that presentation phase, because that's where you get to communicate your ideas, and not so much what you want to communicate is what the other person gets and I think that's what you do. How do you communicate in a way that the other person feels inspired to do something? So tell me about that Trevor?
Trevor Lee 2:26
Well, that's a very good point Umar because one of the biggest challenges I find with people doing presentations in any sort of business context, is that they have a tendency to put the presentation together for themselves.
Umar Hameed 2:40
Trevor Lee 2:40
rather for their audience. So they think, 'Hey, I need to tell them how great I am at this and I need to stick that in because that makes me feel good about that. And I'm really good at this so I'd better mention that." And of course, a lot of the time the audience don't want to hear all that, they just want to know what's in it for them. And I think that's a big challenge most presenters have.
Umar Hameed 2:58
Here's my hypothesis, and correct me if I'm wrong, that for the sales person, sometimes that isn't what they're thinking, it's this is the most important thing, this is what the person knows, they don't even realize that they're self aggrandizing themselves, they think they're doing it for the benefit of the customer and that, of course, is not what the customer hears. So how do you help people understand how to craft that presentation. And if you can tell me about a particular client of yours, you can protect the, change the name to protect the innocent, kind of what they were presenting before, and how you got them to transform, and then we'll break it down so people listening to this podcast realize your mastery?
Trevor Lee 3:34
Well, I think I think Omar, there's a pattern amongst a lot of clients actually and that is that when I, when I work with them on a presentation, I discovered that the first thing they've done is power of the PowerPoint or the PowerPoint equivalent. And that means they've usually dragged form of presentation onto their screen and they think, "Right, okay, I'll just make a few tweaks and I'll change the load...
Umar Hameed 3:55
Trevor Lee 3:55
...on the front slide and I'm away," and that is the that is the starting point. So my starting point, because I've got a little model of presenting called the seven P's of presenting and it starts simply with the purpose of your presentation. So why are you presenting? What do you want the outcome to be? What do you want the next steps to be? Those sort of thing and very rarely do I find that, you know, presenters do that? A good example...
Umar Hameed 4:22
Trevor Lee 4:23
Umar Hameed 4:23
Probably don't understand my product or my service is so good. They just hear a little bit about it, they'll just want me to stop and go buy it immediately. And it sounds silly, but somehow we end up believing that right? My product is so good, they'll want it, you don't understand, Trevor. So how do you get people to really step into the other person's shoe?
Trevor Lee 4:42
Well, that is exactly Umar is getting the presenters to think what is it like to be on the other side of my presentation? And one of the ways I do work with people is I say, "Okay, so if you are in there, you know if you are in the audience, you know, why is this of interest to you? Why should you be engaged by it? Why should you do something at the end of it, because all I'm hearing at the moment is how great you are and how many trophies you've won, and what a great coffee machine you've got in your office." I'm not hearing what's in it for me. And that's what you've got to do, you've really got to switch sides, and put yourself in the audience for your presentation and then see if it works.
Umar Hameed 5:15
So Trevor, where were you when I needed you. So you know, I've started dating again, and I'm going to these dates and I'm starting off with, I'm amazing, I'm fantastic, I have this great cat and dates leave, they go to the bathroom, and they leave out the back door. When you phrase it like that, if you were going on a date, and you just told people how awesome you were for the first 10 minutes, they'd want to kill themselves or you or leave. So yeah, you need to know what the outcome is and how do you step into the other person's shoes, what's the next P?
Trevor Lee 5:41
Well, the next, the next thing is, the second P is people, which is understanding your audience, and then it gets into your preparation. And the preparation is really the logistics of it. But the fourth P, which is we're still not going to the slides is...
Umar Hameed 5:54
Trevor Lee 5:55
...this I mean, and that's the that's the content, the flow and the structure of your presentation. Because you know, you want your presentation to feel like it's not a series of slides that are just hacked together. If you use...
Umar Hameed 6:05
Trevor Lee 6:05
...which vast majority of people do as we know, it has to kind of tell that story. Make people feel as though they're part of that story and they're going on that journey with you. And then when you get to the end of the journey, they go, "Yeah, this is right, this is what I need. This is you know, I'm ready to go, I want you to work with me, I want to buy your product or your service, or whatever it is." So it is that, and I think a lot of people who do presentations, they don't they don't get that bit. That's what I find when I work with most of them. They just don't get that they feel that a presentation is all about a series of slides and you just throw in people stuff, and and hope it sticks and then they wonder why it doesn't work.
Umar Hameed 6:40
And it's like they need to know this. I was reading a book, actually a few books around Steve Jobs, and all the books are about how amazing is how fantastic he is. And there was this one book by his ad agency. And they had given this anecdote in the book, which I found really revealing, is that they were trying to market this new product for Apple, and Steve was saying, "No, no, you don't understand, we need to let people know that it does these five things is critical in the ads that they know it does A-B-C-D-E," and the marketing guys said, "No Steve, that doesn't make sense, we need to focus on one idea," "No, no, they need five," so the guy finally gives up and he gets a piece of paper and he crumpled it up and he says, "Steve catch," and he throws it to Steve and Steve catches it and throws it back. Then it crumbles up another four pieces of paper gets all five and says, "Steve catch," and since all five too many doesn't catch any one of them. And so just really drove at home that one idea is what you need to focus on. So as they're preparing for this slides, what's that one idea you want them to communicate? Does it differ from presentation to presentation or how do you cross that bridge?
Trevor Lee 7:42
Well, I think it will I think it will differ? I mean, I would I would normally say on that context, you know, don't go with more than three core messages within your presentation.
Umar Hameed 7:50
Trevor Lee 7:51
Because if you get beyond three, like you say your people for you know, and very often, of course, one of the big challenges is that as I said at the beginning, people kind of have this, what you might call the kitchen sink approach, they want to throw everything in there, you know, all in there everything I do, I've got to get into my 10-minute presentation. But if you can, if you can narrow it down to one key thing and that goes back to the purpose Umar, you know, what is it you want to achieve at the end of the presentation? What's your key goal? And whatever that is, then what do you need to put in your presentation to give you the best chance of achieving it. And everything else needs getting rid of and that's why a big skill of being a presenter is when you're planning is to be a ruthless editor as I would call it, chop out all this stuff that really doesn't work, I mean, it might be great stuff, but it doesn't need to be there.
Umar Hameed 8:37
And that's why you need a coach. That's why you need someone like you because it's so hard to do it yourself because it's your Kool Aid, it's your baby, you think your baby's beautiful and while somebody else might say, you know, "You better put a mask on that," so editing is difficult. So tell me, you've not been doing this business for your entire lifetime, so when you first started saying, "Hey, I'm gonna help you with your presentations," what was your message back then? And what's your message now when you communicate with people and you have a chance to talk to them about your what you do? Has that message changed? Have you honed it to be more precise?
Trevor Lee 9:11
I don't think it's necessarily changed, clearly, circumstances have changed. I remember, you know, doing presentations a long time ago without the use of even PowerPoint and things like that, we were using a very different version of things in those days. And of course now right now, particularly right now, we're doing a lot more virtual presentations,
Umar Hameed 9:30
Trevor Lee 9:31
most probably ever before and we're going to continue to do that. So but at the end of the day Umar, you know, I think you've got to engage your audience, you've got to educate them, you've got to enthuse them and to a degree without being over the top you have to entertain them. So those are my kind of four things that I would, I would,
Umar Hameed 9:48
Trevor Lee 9:48
you know, get those all in your presentation, whether it's 10 minutes or 20 minutes or half an hour, whatever it might be, get those four things in there. And that again will give you a better chance of being more successful.
Umar Hameed 10:00
Absolutely. Today, it's been really hard in our conversation today we've used a lot of cliches, I'm about to use another one, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear, it doesn't make a sound." and if you give a presentation to the person listening to it doesn't care about what was the frickin' point in the first place. So how do you ensure that your presentation has a point that the recipient cares about?
Trevor Lee 10:23
Well, I think that goes back to you know, the people, but is understanding why your audience are there in the first place. You know, why are they, why are they giving you the time to present to them? What are they expecting from you? you've got to rip that out and of course, you can find that out, you can do your research, you can tell people about it in advance. But you've got to make sure that you then deliver it. I'll tell you a little story myself, when I went to a business event some years ago, and a guy was listed, do a half an hour presentation on how to shoot video on your phone. And I at the time, it was a it was a relatively new thing, I thought, "Great, I'm going to that," so went along, sat down 25 minutes into his presentation, all he done was talk about his company and how they make great videos on not using their phone, and then he said "Oh, and by the way, here's a couple of tips to use video on your phone." I've been conned out of my, my half an hour of my my time at that event. And we can't the rest of the audience, well, I'm sure he didn't really think like that but nevertheless, that's what happened. So again, it's really important that your audience from the get go think this is really, this is worth my while giving it my full attention.
Umar Hameed 11:30
And I think sometimes this is thought that, you know, if I'm doing a sales presentation, I don't want to give away too much of my presentation, otherwise, they'll go somewhere else or do it themselves. And the reality is, yes, a certain percentage of people are going to do that, and there are people You should thank God are never your customers. And when you show your expertise, and you're on point, people recognize it, and they want it because people realize that they are not masters of all things. So, Trevor, if you were helping me, so I've got this new project coming up, and it's did I give you a copy of Mindset Boosters?
Trevor Lee 12:03
I think so yes, I think we talked about it all I asked.
Umar Hameed 12:06
Yeah. It's about an app that lets you figure out how you want to feel or act in any situation. So how would you coach me to hone down that message? What questions would you ask me to get a tighter message so we can build a presentation around it?
Trevor Lee 12:20
Well, I think the first thing would be who you're gonna, who you're hoping to present to and what you want, you want the outcome to be?
Umar Hameed 12:25
Gullible people and no, not that, sales professionals. We're looking for sales professionals that are high performers that want to stay in the performance zone would be the ideal target audience.
Trevor Lee 12:36
And of course, you know, those sort of people are, you know, not inundated with stuff, but they've got a lot of stuff going on. And when when they're in that high performance zone, as well as danger, they think that you know, they've cracked it, and they don't need to learn anything new or use anything new as well.
Umar Hameed 12:39
Trevor Lee 12:51
So you've got to really, you know, if you've got your way of thinking about it Umar, I always think is, okay, doesn't matter how long your presentation is going to be, but what if you had 90 seconds? You know, your kind of elevator pitch if you...
Umar Hameed 13:03
Trevor Lee 13:03
...you know, what would you put into that? Because whatever you put into that, that's, you know, that to me is the starting point, that's,
Umar Hameed 13:10
That's going to distill everything down.
Trevor Lee 13:11
Yeah, absolutely. So whatever you put in that you can then maybe expand a little bit on. One of the things about presentations is we always tend to think we, you know, we should take longer than we really need.
Umar Hameed 13:22
You know, that's one thing I loved about TED Talks, they're still around, I don't watch them as much. But when they first came out, it was like, a lightning strike is like, "Oh, my God, you got the world's best thinkers condensing their ideas down to 18 minutes."
Trevor Lee 13:34
Umar Hameed 13:36
And it doesn't happen by accident. This something you need to kind of hone it down.
Trevor Lee 13:40
Umar Hameed 13:40
So take us, where are we in the piece right now?
Trevor Lee 13:44
Well, we've probably, we've worked our way through the purpose, the people the preparation, which is all the logistics, the planning bit. If you're going to use slides, which is PowerPoint, which is the fifth P then, you know, just my advice is, you know, no one wants to cause death by PowerPoint, do they if they can help it, but we've all suffered over the years, we've all suffered a lot probably. But interestingly, my thought on that is that, it's not always the number of words, sorry, not the number of slides that you use, to me death by PowerPoint is not the content of those slides. You know, when you're in a presentation, and someone put that slide up, and it's got about 50,60,100,150 words on it, and they start reading it, that's what we called...
Umar Hameed 14:27
Trevor Lee 14:27
...death by PowerPoint. There's a little, there's a very interesting little thing I do that when I'm delivering presentation programs, I usually get to about, you know, say 30-40 minutes in and then I'll say, right, "So how many slides have I used?" And people go, "Oh, 25,27,31." And I'm usually on slide 70 something. And they're always amazed and I said, "Well, that proves the point." So, you know, it's not death by PowerPoint by the number of slides is because most of my slides have got one or two words on, and that's it or an image and that's it and that's would be the thing for me. So my top tip for your listeners on PowerPoint is think that PowerPoint is a prompt, it's not a script.
Umar Hameed 14:28
Absolutely. And I think I'd add to it a little bit, it's a, so what you're saying, if you can find the right image, or a word or two that would enhance your message and make it more memorable, you strengthen the words and if it's not doing that, then you're doing it wrong, because I've also been there. And if you're going to read the PowerPoint, just make a video and stop the torture, keep people at home. That's very much to, and you need interaction with the audience. So we've got the PowerPoint, and what's the next P?
Trevor Lee 15:37
Practice. Practices the sixth P, and that's one thing that most presenters really don't do enough of, if at all. And the top tip I can give your listeners for practice Umar is that, if you've got whatever time you've got to deliver your presentation, and when you're practicing, take it no more than 80 to 85% of that time. So let's say a 20-minute presentation when you practice, deliver in 16 or 17, because if you do the full 20 in practice, I'll guarantee you'll be over the time in, in real.
Umar Hameed 16:09
That's a really good tip. And by the way, dear listeners, since you need to practice find family members you don't like and trap them and present to them.
Umar Hameed 16:17
It serves two purposes. So yeah, practicing is really, really important too. Like this morning, I was playing squash and there was a guy in another court just practicing by himself, maneuvers that he's going to do in his match and he was just doing it for like 40 minutes doing those practices and I was like, "I wish I had that discipline". But there's a reason why he is like a frickin' amazing player and I embarrassed the entire world of squash with my play. It takes dedication to be good at it.
Trevor Lee 16:42
But it does.
Umar Hameed 16:42
Trevor Lee 16:43
Umar Hameed 16:43
...you know what's amazing is this, when you see someone that is a total master of their craft, they become so good, that they give you the illusion that what they did was effortless. You kind of go, "I could do that." And when you go to do it, you realize, "No frickin' way this is way harder than I thought," but when you get that level of mastery, you make it look easy and that's I think what we need to strive for.
Trevor Lee 17:07
It is and, you know, we've all seen presenters in action. And it looks as though they've, they've got no notes sometimes or very few notes, they just it's effortless, it all flows very neatly, and it looks as though they're almost winging it. But of course, we know that they've practiced it a lot.
Umar Hameed 17:24
So one of the things I do is I know that I want to do, the overall message is this, I've got three points to bolster my message, and for each point, I got a story. And what I remember is, what's the opening of the story, the opening of the story is, you know, you wouldn't believe this, and I go into the story and the exit is one line that I know for sure and exits on. And that's how you can become amazing at squash because the very next story, their opening line links in perfectly.
Trevor Lee 17:54
Umar Hameed 17:54
And in the middle of the story, I can meander if I want, and people think I memorize the whole thing. And it's just a trick of just openings and beginnings are locked in everything else, lets me flow a little bit to sense the audience what they need. Thoughts on that?
Trevor Lee 18:08
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that within that structure, because I always say to people, you know, make sure within your structure of your presentation, you, you don't take up, you know, more than about 70% with your core messages, you've got to have a good start, and a kind of what I would call a big finish. Because you know, if you think about it, the start is when people are making their minds up about you.
Umar Hameed 18:29
Trevor Lee 18:29
We'll be listening. And the finish is when they when you're trying to persuade them or you know, to do something about it. So actually, the bit in the middle, we I think we get the wrong way around in terms of how important it is. Sometimes...
Umar Hameed 18:41
Trevor Lee 18:42
...a bit in the middle is not the most important thing. It's the...
Umar Hameed 18:45
Trevor Lee 18:45
Umar Hameed 18:46
Trevor Lee 18:46
Yeah, yeah. And very often presenters, but all the emphasis on the bit in the middle, they have a poor start and they have sometimes they even have a finish at all. So get that start and finish right. That would that's what I would say.
Umar Hameed 18:59
So what are your thoughts on because people neuroscience proves that, you know, it's the opening and the closing of what people remember most. So do lift the two so you kinda hammer home that message on the opening and the end the ending?
Trevor Lee 19:12
I mean, if you Google, you know how to do a presentation tomorrow, you'll probably come up with suddenly call the three tell thems, which has been knocking around for about 100,000...
Umar Hameed 19:20
Trevor Lee 19:20
...years where, you know, you tell them what you're going to tell them, which is the start, you tell them you call me in the middle and you tell them what you've told them. So you've got three opportunities to get your, you know, the whole emphasis of the, you know, the core message that wraps around it all. So you know, I was starting the presentation, I would say so over the next 15 minutes, I'm going to share with you three top ideas that will help you grow your sales or something like that.
Umar Hameed 19:42
Trevor Lee 19:42
So you know, I'm getting everything in that the beginning. So you know, it's going to be 15 minutes, you're in for three top ideas so hopefully you're thinking, great, what are those? and then at the end, I would say, "So those top three ideas. Let's just let me just remind you what they were, da da da, it and this is now what I want you to do next."
Umar Hameed 19:59
Ah. Brilliant. So we're at the practice P, what's the next P, is that the last P?
Trevor Lee 20:04
The last one is performance, which is the delivery of your presentation?
Umar Hameed 20:07
Trevor Lee 20:08
I knew and when I first created this model, I had practice and performance the other way around but I realized you need to practice obviously, before you go out and deliver the performance. And when I, when I use the word performance, people get a bit worried. And they say, "Well, conky," you know, does, you know they, because people, you know, we all know that there's a lot of people who fear presenting even if they do virtually. So my thought is that, you know, you're not looking to win an Oscar, you're looking to deliver your presentation, and...
Umar Hameed 20:34
You're gonna sell.
Trevor Lee 20:34
...the best in you. Now I ask...
Umar Hameed 20:37
Trevor Lee 20:37
...from somebody else, I can't remember who you years ago, just be the best of yourself for however long you've got, and you know, and enjoy it. Because if you enjoy delivering your presentation that will rub off on your audience. If you sort of stand there, and you're looking as though and feeling as though you just can't wait for this to finish, then, you know, that's going to have a kind of negative vibe on your audience. So you've got them in that zone.
Umar Hameed 20:58
Trevor Lee 20:59
You know, you know all about this with the mindset, you've got to get in that zone, haven't you? And you know, I remember when you came on my podcast, you talked about, you know, being an A player more, more than just 5% of the time. Well, you know, this in this case, you know, I want you to be an A player when you're delivering your presentation and then actually, if you're going to be a B player, well be the rest of the time, but not when you're doing your presentation, that's when you go.
Umar Hameed 21:22
Absolutely. And the only thing I'd add to that, Trevor is this, is that I'm a firm believer in the power of sucking, do the seven P's and you're going to do a pretty decent job, but it's going to suck compared to the 10th time you do the delivery. So don't get caught up on it has to be perfect.
Trevor Lee 21:39
Umar Hameed 21:39
Structure it out, do it, it's going to be better than most people do anyway. But just be happy with what you did and then record every single presentation you do, record record record, and they can listen back to it. And if you got a coach, you're using Trevor as your coach to listen back to it together and say, "Oh, he did really well here, over here, what happened there," and then you workshop it rather than coming back to Trevor saying, "Oh, yeah, went pretty well and then it kind of went sideways, were kind I don't know to record.
Trevor Lee 21:44
Absolutely. Yeah. Cuz I think I think one of the you know, one of the challenges for everything we do in business Umar is that it's having that motivation to keep getting better at everything that we do, no matter how long we've been doing it. And one of the challenges with working with presenters is that, you know, they've been the CEO of the company, they've been delivering presentations of assault for 20-30 years, and they just think they can turn up and deliver it and it'd be great.
Umar Hameed 22:29
Trevor Lee 22:30
And, of course, everyone in their company says, "Oh, that was great. That was brilliant," when it isn't.
Umar Hameed 22:38
Well, that's a perfect time to end our conversation together. Trevor, thanks so much for sharing the seven P's, kind of makes me want to go pee, but no, it doesn't, only kidding. Thanks for being on the show.
Trevor Lee 22:48
Umar it has been terrific. Thank you very much for inviting me.
Umar Hameed 22:55
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of neuro-linguistic programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.