August 19

Michael Permack on Building Trust


Michael is an expert within the healthcare sector. He provides advice to healthcare professionals and has developed, leased, bought, and sold properties in this sector.

His company has saved healthcare professionals $525 million over his career. Recently he has launched the healthcare investment network to create win win, no conflict, investment opportunities following investment strategies from industry experts to benefit healthcare professionals. Michael is an Ivey MBA graduate and has been an entrepreneur for most of his career. A Governor General Award was awarded to Michael for the volunteer work performed with the Canadian Cancer Society. He also has been recognized with the Medal of Courage from the Canadian Cancer Society.

[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]

Umar Hameed 0:01
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone! My name is Umar Hameed, I'm your host on The No Limits Selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how you can become better, stronger, faster. Just before we get started, I've got a question for you, do you have a negative voice inside your head? We all do, right? I'm gonna help you remove that voice and under 30 days guaranteed, not only remove it, but transform it. So instead of the voice that sabotages you, there's one that propels you to much higher levels of performance and success. There's a link in the show notes, click on it to find out more. All right! Let's get started.

Umar Hameed 0:41
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The No Limits Selling Podcast today we have the privilege of having Michael Permack here today. He's the head honcho at, helped me pronounced?

Michael Permack 0:52
Spire Group.

Umar Hameed 0:52
Spire Group. Welcome to the program.

Michael Permack 0:55
Thank you.

Umar Hameed 0:56
So what I did there, Michael, was I hiccup down the name of the thing I could have said it.

Michael Permack 1:01

Umar Hameed 1:02
But I opted to let you do it. And the reason I wanted to start off with that is this, is that in our world we're so scared to look weak, we don't know what we're doing. And we pretend to be better than we are. That when you are your authentic self, this power there and this connection there. And rather than people seeing you for being weaker, it actually creates strength. Kind of thoughts on that? I might be smoking something I shouldn't be smoking.

Michael Permack 1:26
No, I actually think, you know, I just took a transformational leadership course with the Boston Breakthrough Academy.

Umar Hameed 1:33

Michael Permack 1:34
And a big thing about it is being vulnerable and also being in your heart. So I I'm all over that.

Umar Hameed 1:43
Like today, I just landed a client and it was the final meeting with the CEO, started the company 40 years ago, his son's the president and he'll be taking over in the next two, three years. And the guy says, "Do you know why we are? Look, why should we hire you? Like what do you bring to the table?" and I said, "What I bring to the table is integrity," and he says, "That's not why we're hiring you. We're hiring you for your passion." But I said, "In the past, my passion was designed to make me look good and for me to win. And now...

Michael Permack 2:12

Umar Hameed 2:12
...wiser" is like, "How can we get the change for you and your organization is more important than me looking good?"

Michael Permack 2:18
Yeah, I get it.

Umar Hameed 2:20
And so you've been a leader for a while, tell me about in your earlier days when you were younger and dumber? What did you think an aspect of leadership was that turned out later on as you look back, that really wasn't it? Do you have one of those things that you learned?

Michael Permack 2:35
I have, I have a lot of those things as I have been in business for 35 years. So of course, and times changed over over, you know, those decades, which is incredible that I say decades now. But the one thing that I know is that it's shifted from, you know, I'm telling you what to do now is in more into a collaborative approach, where you enroll your team, in your vision, or in their vision for themselves. It depends on the situation but it's, it's all been rolling your employees as opposed to like telling them what to do, I mean, sometimes you get to do that. But that's, that's corrective action but in general, you want it to be, you know, live their best lives. And in order for them to do that, the that, you know, you have to have a compelling vision.

Umar Hameed 3:35
Absolutely. I think I'll come back to what you just said in a moment but I'm going to focus on the vision. I think there's three main responsibilities of a leader. Number one is that compelling vision, that strategically sound but inspires people to go, "That's a journey worth taking." And the second thing is how do you build a culture that is not selfish, it's not about my department and me looking good as, "How do we win?" and doing that is like a real tough thing to do so a leader has to focus on that. And the third one is long term shareholder value, "How do you make this thing more valuable?" And if you can do that, you get to be a leader. And if you don't get the culture thing, right, you get dragged down into operations where there's this VP doesn't get along with that VP...

Michael Permack 4:20

Umar Hameed 4:20
...or that kind of stuff. So have you been in an organization where the culture wasn't right and you helped correct it?

Michael Permack 4:27
So I've been, so that's a really great question. It's not my own company, but I was a board member of Canada's largest charity as a cancer charity. And I was out-voted, 15 to 1 on their plan, I was on the board. And I said, "I, I guess I'm I guess I should leave," and that turned that turned into the head of the company, head of the charity coming to me as I was walking to the elevator and saying, "You can't leave." And then I started a seven year journey because I'm a cancer survivor, to work with a small group of bandits, uh, we, we actually totally changed the culture, the culture, the operating philosophy, the there's a dis a ton of stuff that went on. But the main point of the culture was that independent cancer charities were working to raise money from the same people. So my thought was, "Why are we raising? Why don't we join forces?" And what happened was, at the end, towards the end, I enrolled a college student, Nick, significant business person in Canada, to and he was able to merge prostate cancer with breast cancer with the overall cancer charities. But it was a vision that I had, like, it just came to me that, "Why are Why are we fighting against each other for money, let's go do it together." And that is that win-win philosophy is a huge, that's a big part of my life.

Umar Hameed 6:06
But thank you for sharing that story. And you would think that people in the cancer business would be benevolent, but it's not. It's like human nature to be selfish. And what if we share it, they will take our share? And it's like, "No, we will grow the pie but we can get that."

Michael Permack 6:21
Yeah, it's a very. So imagine for a second that you're sitting in a hospital, you're not well, and that's why I focused on. I focused on the patient and their families.

Umar Hameed 6:32

Michael Permack 6:33
What was happening at the board level, where they're focusing on pens and pencils, and how much are we spending on marketing and this and that, and, and I get the performance measures that they're needed, but with the outcome being that the patients and the and their families and the researchers and the people are going to really make a difference, really needed to get engaged and be supported. And so, in fact, I did this. I was in one province in Canada, where I was the only provincial lead. I had an open house for all the employees, and we told them from the board level what was going on. And there's, there was 100 employees, 80 showed up. And they, they, they were so grateful just to know what was going on. So was very, the dynamics for work top down and then we said, "Ask the board anything," and it was it was incredible experience.

Umar Hameed 7:30
Yeah, it's really going to interesting, as a leader of a company, you are stuck in the middle. So you've got employees that are looking up to you, and then you got all that sometimes looking down upon you but really, it's the CEO that has to lead the board. Because oftentimes, they don't get it, the whole idea is they're supposed to get it, but it's how do you focus them in the area. So a lot of times you get people that join a board, and they're taking up space. And really, as a leader, you have to say, either step up or step off, you just can't be there and coast. Because oftentimes the board members have a kickass amazing Rolodex. And they have the ability to do things for the organization, but they just waiting there, tell me what to do. It's like, Shut the hell up and go call your Rolodex and do something great.

Michael Permack 8:16
Well, I was very fortunate in that, that I want to Governor General award for that change turning around the, the organization. But I was more fortunate that I was the people I worked with, because they they actually did step up. And they supported me in many ways like, I can't even tell you. But the the biggest thing was is they saw me as a change agent, and I was not I was I was not going to take no for an answer because of the importance of the cause, which was the vision. The vision is, is why can't we work together all together to help people with cancer period. Fundraising, research, whatever it was, it didn't matter. So that that was the that was the emphasis. And and when somebody was I had a few people say to me, this will never work. It's not going to happen. What do you know, you know, all that stuff? And I, I just said, "You know, you're right. I don't, I don't know anything," and then I would just, "boom," just speak my piece and people resonated with it. And I got a lot of resistance.

Umar Hameed 9:28

Michael Permack 9:28
That's one thing would change. I got a lot of resistance from the status quo. And my answer to them, like one person said, "This will never work," and she was a significant leader in the organization. And I said, "You know what, you don't have to stay. You know, if this isn't good for you, I think it's the right thing to do personally, but if you don't have to stay," and she was taken aback like, I didn't even work there as a volunteer, but I knew the right thing to do.

Umar Hameed 9:58
I did some work with the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation in the US and they were just an average charity doing good work. And this gentleman, his son got sick. And he happened to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company and decided to take over the as president of the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. And he had a different mindset. And his mindset was, money is the key differentiator between whether we're gonna be successful or not. Because in a lot of charities, it's like, they have a charity mindset, "Will you please give me $24?" And he came in and said, "No, we need to raise funds," and they ended up setting up a venture capital fund that funded treatments that are on the last stages of trials to actually make a significant impact. And they...

Michael Permack 10:46

Umar Hameed 10:46
...have a distinction now of raising more money per sick person than any other charity in the US.

Michael Permack 10:51
Wow, man, that's, that's transformational.

Umar Hameed 10:55
Yeah. And then they got all the volunteers is mostly volunteer organization, and those people are on freaking fire with passion. So he awoke, the volunteers, he got the scientists working, raising funds, and just focused on what was the most important, which is the people and the experience that families and patients have.

Michael Permack 11:15

Umar Hameed 11:15
And we fund research that it causes thing rather than just go through the motions of stuff. And it was like, quite inspiring.

Michael Permack 11:24
Yeah. So I, that was a that was a highlight of my career. But it like, wasn't about the award. It wasn't about achieving whatever, it was about doing, it was just doing good for, like, there's 37 million Canadians, and they were all going to be impacted. So yeah, so I'm focused on helping more than 37 million Canadians. I have a big purpose so.

Umar Hameed 11:52
Yeah. And if you find the cure here, it's kind of contagious. It can go worldwide, which is like amazing. Whatever comes from Poland, Canada doesn't make a difference, as long as [garbled]. By the way, just a pop quiz for you because...

Michael Permack 12:04

Umar Hameed 12:05
Like you're dozing off on this podcast. What's the difference between Americans and Canadians?

Michael Permack 12:10
I'll tell that's an interesting, that's an interesting. So I believe Americans are generally really good people. And but and they're, they don't have the same social safety nets that we have in Canada. Our taxes are higher to provide social safety nets. They're very competitive, US, and I think that's great. But I, I believe and, you know, don't just one man talking. But I believe that everybody's headed to the same conclusion that whatever, whatever we do, we have to pick up the marginalized people and make sure they're okay. And I'm not saying they're great, but they have to be okay. And that's what I'm seeing as a commonality. And, and I think, I think that's, it's headed in that direction and I'm hopeful for that. The other thing is, is the amount of money in the US versus Canada is, we're 10 or 10 times less population. But we're, I don't know, 30 times less wealthy. We have resources that we're not selling, which are the cleanest the oil, for example, on natural gas, which are, we've developed really clean energy, even, like oil and gas industry is really focused on being clean. And it's being hampered by regulations and government control and all that stuff. So in the in the US, I know there's some of that, but in Canada, it's really tough.

Umar Hameed 13:49
Yeah. And I think there's commonalities between both people and initially, I was just going to tell you a joke. The difference between Americans, when you ask an American, "Who are you to go?" "I'm an American." We ask Canadians, "Who are you?" we go, "We're not Americans."

Michael Permack 14:06
That's actually true. That's when this goes way back when I backpacked Europe, I for sure had a Canadian flag on.

Umar Hameed 14:15
Yeah, definitely. And there's lots of Americans do the same thing.

Michael Permack 14:17
Yeah, yeah.

Umar Hameed 14:18
So you know, you're a business guy, you're in sales. And tell me about some of the salespeople one of the salespeople you were leading that was struggling, and how you discovered what the issue was that was blocking them and how you got them to overcome it? And how you allowed them shine? Did someone come to mind when I ask you?

Michael Permack 14:37
Yes, absolutely. So I'm gonna just use his initials. J. S., J. S.

Umar Hameed 14:45
I know him.

Michael Permack 14:45
Yeah. J. S. He, he was very technical. And we're when, we're when we're selling to our clients, to get them to retain us, it's great to have a technical background but they're, they want to help develop trust. And the trust is based on a feeling...

Umar Hameed 15:09

Michael Permack 15:09
they get that you're. that you're in their corner. He was going, I know this about [garbled] medical industry, we help healthcare professionals with their finding locations and, and renewing their leases, etc, etc. And we also have something called the Health Care investor network, which we help doctors and dentists and other health care professionals invest their fund money in a safe way. So But going back to J. S., he was wrapped up in the technical.

Umar Hameed 15:11

Michael Permack 15:11
He, he would say, this is how many footsteps it takes to go from me, the front counter. And he would tell them that in the sales meetings, and I would say they don't really care what they want to know.

Umar Hameed 15:59
What are you talking about. No, no, you don't understand, Michael. But please go on.

Michael Permack 16:04
Yeah. So I helped him with a process for sales that I've used for years. And I gave him what I call the wheel. And he started to implement that. And he couldn't believe how fast the sales turned around because he wasn't talking about extraneous things.

Umar Hameed 16:19
So J.S., did you say was the...

Michael Permack 16:21
Yeah, J.S., yeah.

Umar Hameed 16:23
So what's interesting is, the person isn't here. But I bet if I ask them in their worldview, their strategy was perfectly sound in the world was crazy.

Michael Permack 16:32

Umar Hameed 16:33
And then you offer this...

Michael Permack 16:33
That's exactly right.

Umar Hameed 16:34
You offer this new model of the world, which to J. S., "That sounds crazy, this will never work, because it's stupid, because why would it work." And then, if they actually apply it in the way that was intended, then they get the results that you promised. And they go, "Wait a minute, this is much better," but I suspect other people that you would have advised in this exact same situation, if they didn't trust in you, they would have tried your technique in a way that was designed to fail, like half heartedly one step off. And when he failed, it just validates their belief that their way is right and your way is wrong. So part of the business of leadership is really managing beliefs, and you do a lot of that through trust.

Michael Permack 17:13
Oh, yeah.

Umar Hameed 17:14
So how do you recommend people build trust with the people that are leading?

Michael Permack 17:18
Yeah, that's a great question. So I'll take the same person, but I have other people like it's the same, it's the same tactic. You as a leader, get get to not have to get to spend time with it with the sales team, or the salesperson or even a min people if it's if it's required. You get to spend time with them to learn what's important to them. And then you frame it around that, because we're talking about their vision. I mean, they go home at night, and they have to talk to their spouse or their have a kid that sick or whatever, whatever is going on for them, that's real. So the more, the more that I am engaged with them on a personal level, the and I give a shit. Oh, sorry, I care. Sorry.

Umar Hameed 18:10
There's no me care about them. Canada, they were fine.

Michael Permack 18:12
Yeah. Okay, good. That I care about them legitimately and they feel that because I do, I do. Some people don't fit with that. But that's the type of people that we, we have in our company, and and we support, we support the person personally. So they there's no hidden agendas. So it's, it's taking the taking the time to get to know what your people want, they're there almost a customer in a different way. That's to motivate them is to be connected to them. Because connection, be breached trust or not, or not. And sometimes, or sometimes what happens is they don't want to tell you what's really going on. And I my experiences that doesn't work out well for them.

Umar Hameed 19:06
Or anybody or the organization.

Michael Permack 19:08

Umar Hameed 19:08
A lot of times I'm working with a company right now. And it's a father and two sons run it. And the sons are not telling their father the truth, not because why but you know. Even if it was a Boston to subordinates, I heard this thing it was the MGM, one of the founders of the studio. Well. he's got a quote, "I don't want to work with yes-men, I want people to tell me the truth, even if it gets them fired."

Michael Permack 19:10
Well, I would say that we're not apt to fire people often. But we also if you're, you know, if you're sticking out like a sore thumb, it's it's not better, best, best for anybody, right? If they're not.

Umar Hameed 19:48
If you've got a really good leader, they train their subordinates that, it is your responsibility to have the courage to speak up when something is wrong. And sometimes you're going to be absolutely correct, we need to fix it. And sometimes you're going to be wrong, in which case we can have that conversation and settle the situation. But if you think something is wrong, and you keep your mouth shut, or worse, after the management meeting, you had three other managers go in your office and have the real meeting.

Michael Permack 20:17

Umar Hameed 20:18
Just creates a cancer there. And I think, one, the courage to speak up, and then the strength to hear because oftentimes, when somebody points something out, that's a weakness. Instantly people get into a defensive mode, where you really have to get on the same side of the table and go, "So tell me, what are you seeing?" Because that trust and that intent, right? there's an issue, we need to solve it, or there's a real issue, in which case we solve it, or it's not a real issue, in which case you enlighten me. But if we've got that kind of shorthand, oftentimes, it never makes it to the leadership team in the first place. Managers just have a conversation in the hallway, it's like, "Oh, let's sort this out. It's done. Let's move forward. If we can't sort it out." The weekly team meeting is the place to sorted out because you got eight super smart people, can focus their energies on this issue and solve it like that, rather than let it fester for six months.

Michael Permack 21:07
It's, it's, it's almost so simple. But here's what I would say, I take total responsibility for everything in my life. Everything. So if it's not going well, then for like, in my family, whatever, I taking responsibility for that. So that, what that means, and I and I talk to our people, but this what that means is you can no longer be a victim.

Umar Hameed 21:34

Michael Permack 21:35
And, and can't complain. So if I'm taking total responsibility, right? then and you're taking total responsibility, that we can come to a really good outcome. That's my experience.

Umar Hameed 21:46
Absolutely. And let's say I don't take total responsibility. And you take total responsibility, and I do something really, really bad. And if you say, "Well, it's Umar's fault, it's out of your head," but if you say, "I attracted Umar into my life, what's the universe trying to teach me through this interaction?"

Michael Permack 22:03
A thousand percent.

Umar Hameed 22:04
Yeah, and then even I am a firm believer in this concept of useful lies. Even if what you're saying is total bullshit is still useful, that allows you in the organization to thrive, I happen to believe it is the truth. But the way I look at it is if you take a look at the ultimate truths, that Einstein had, that other people had that amount turning out not to be accurate, but they still allowed us to progress for like 60 years, and develop technologies and cell phones, even though it wasn't 100% true. And now we will get a better model. And that model is not going to be the truth, the definition of model is, "This is our best guess,'

Michael Permack 22:43

Umar Hameed 22:44
Use it till we get a better one." And one of the things I hope I do is because I am wickedly smart in certain areas, but I always think, this is the best that I know, but it's probably wrong. And that allows me to be on the hunt, like this interview today. This tips I'm going to take from this interview that I'm going to say, "You know that guy Michael, he's full of shit in this area," [Laugh] "He's genius in this area," and there's gonna be other stuff that you say that I'm like, "I'm not sure I'm gonna put it on the fence. And then as I go through life, I'm gonna get more data that's gonna let me put it on the, 'Oh my God, this is really useful, or not useful.' And that's least my path to getting better is just assuming what I know is wrong. And being on the lookout, the best that I know. But there's a better way. And if I've got that lens on, I'm looking for stuff to make it better." And quite a lot of shit that I thought was right that is not.

Michael Permack 23:35
Oh, yeah. When you're starting something new, right? It's scary. It's, you don't you're on sand, you're not on solid ground and it's really uncomfortable. And when you're uncomfortable, you're growing. That's, and that is where I've placed myself in so many uncomfortable positions. And, and it's turned out, every time I do it in a material way, like you know, I'm not talking about something small, something big, you know, there's fear, there's doubt there's this, there's that. But if I believe it's right, and I sent my right intentions, it turns out that over the long run, it just works. So I'll give you a perfect example, not business, ny daughter had a stroke when she was born. She was very...

Umar Hameed 24:25
Stop their for a second. Holy S^@t, a stroke she was born.

Michael Permack 24:29

Umar Hameed 24:29
I can't imagine how scary that was.

Michael Permack 24:33
Yeah, they said she'd never walk. She'd never talk. All that stuff. She is she doesn't have a third of a right hemisphere. So yeah, it was painful, it was sad. It was you know, we're new parents. It was really hard. It was really hard. And so she had some social issues as she was growing up, like didn't fit in and all that and even with us she was in I'm not that every daughter isn't contrary, but she was really contrary. And I just kept saying to her because I had a vision for in my mind for her that I am not every time she did something like I didn't, didn't approve of or, you know, or as a dad, I'm just worried about, I said, "I'm not going to give up on you." And at 25, she said, "Hey, you never gave up on me." So that's the kind of thing where if you set your intention.

Umar Hameed 25:27

Michael Permack 25:28
And and you're saying, "Okay, this is the outcome I want. This is this is my vision," it eventually gets there most of the time, it may take longer than you want, may take much longer. And that's okay because your, your fail, fail, fail, like you've heard a million times. And then click that thing, something clicks and locks in and you're, you're now on a flywheel.

Umar Hameed 25:54
So two think things come up. One, a movie I saw a million years ago, is this guy in this bar or restaurant with this woman? I'm not sure what their relationship is. But there's a gorgeous, gorgeous woman on the other side. And he's like, almost drooling for her. And the woman he's with is saying, "You really think she's beautiful?" "Yes," "The guy dating her right now for six months is already tired of her." So the reason I mentioned that is this is that we get a vision of you know, "When I get the job, this job isn't to change everything," when we finally get there, it's like, :Huh, I thought it would be better," and is really that journey of getting there, if you can enjoy that. And thank you for sharing the story about your daughter and like getting a 25 when she said that, you know, it's [garbled]

Michael Permack 26:42
Oh my God.

Umar Hameed 26:43
...you know, great cause. This is my guess, because you had that notion that, I'm gonna love you anyway. That it allowed you to deal with it more wholeheartedly because you had that mindset. It might have felt bad at the moment, but it's still...

Michael Permack 26:58
Oh, yes.

Umar Hameed 26:58
...yours to handle it in a different way than you would have otherwise. And that allowed that outcome to happen but at least the journey was a lot more enjoyable for both of you. Going there, don't forget the journey, it's...

Michael Permack 27:12
Yeah. Oh my God.

Umar Hameed 27:13
100% of the thing. The end result is that all there is is basically the reaction a lot of times, like, "I love seeing new places, I love achieving new things. But if I have fun going on that journey there, it's so much richer, and is probably 1000 times more joy on the journey," then you get at the end of it all because the new car smell, it's a real big grill for a day or two but after that, it's just like, your nose blind to it.

Michael Permack 27:40
And you go, you go, for me anyway, my mind goes to what's next. Like almost immediately, I don't, I don't know, understand quite why my mind does that. But um, you know, I think actually I do descend an epiphany, because I had mentioned to in our pre-interview just came to me now that I'm the longest living brain tumor survivor I can find. And, you know, so I shut down for a number of years because they told me I was going to die and whatever, and not whatever but it was really it was really hard. And,

Umar Hameed 27:40

Michael Permack 28:21
and now, and I survived. And so I think I have a a understanding of mortality, that I got a 29 that most people didn't do, you know, I used to look at it like as a, I was a victim to that for sure. I didn't understand it why would a 29 know that? But now I see it, I see it as a gift in terms of wow, I know, I have limited time. I'm for sure want to achieve as much as I can. And you know, and leave it, I don't know, it's not leave a legacy. It's more like, do the best work I can for the period of time I'm here.

Umar Hameed 29:07

Michael Permack 29:08
And I'm talking three on three levels. So for my family, for our, our collective customers. There's, there's, yeah, we have lots of customers, but also, but also on the volunteer front and social causes.

Umar Hameed 29:29

Michael Permack 29:29
And I'm not talking about cancer, but those are my three on that sort of pillars.

Umar Hameed 29:34
[Garbled] Brilliant.

Michael Permack 29:34
Yeah, yeah. And those three pillars in the intersect because if something's not good at home, I can't perform for our customers or social good. If something's not good with the social good. I'm, you know, I'm saying, "Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out." So that they but that's my three pillars that I that I've developed over time and I gotta tell you the most rewarding once with a charity, not the money,

Umar Hameed 30:02
I believe.

Michael Permack 30:03
The causes, the causes.

Umar Hameed 30:04
So I saw this TV show it was called Human Weapon, where there's two heroes. One is like mixed martial artists and the other guy was a football player that also does some kind of martial arts. And they would go around the world looking for martial arts. And when they went to Japan, of course, they were looking at the ninjas. And so they from different temples, learn different techniques, that the end of the hour show, they actually go to the headquarters and they, one of them has to fight a badass ninja or a badass karate guy wherever they happen to be in the world. Got to fight this badass ninja guy. And they go to the Grandmaster Flash of the ninjas. He's like, 99 million years old, and ancient guy, and through translator this as their one word of wisdom that you could give give me before I go in the ring with this other guy who's like, "Gonna kill me." This is the advice he gave him. "You have to embrace your death. By embracing your death, you have the freedom to live and thrive." And I think you've discovered that at an early age that...

Michael Permack 31:07
You didn't know that that was that, you know, when...

Umar Hameed 31:09

Michael Permack 31:09
...it first happened.

Umar Hameed 31:11

Michael Permack 31:11
It was, it was a shock but I get it. Like, you know, especially now I'm, I never thought I'd be 59.

Umar Hameed 31:21

Michael Permack 31:21
I never thought I'd I never thought I'd make it. And now I see, you know, not that I see the end but I see you know, life's not forever. And you know, when, and I would say this is something for your audience is apply your efforts. Because you have, if you don't have you have infinite possibilities, but not an infinite time. So apply your time, very, very carefully. Take time to think about is this, is this meaningful, or whatever you'd measure your time on, it monetarily succeed. Whatever you measure, however you measure time, I measure I told you in three buckets. So But however, you measure your time, focus, don't let it, on't let a minute go by.

Umar Hameed 31:38

Michael Permack 32:00
It's really it's really precious.

Umar Hameed 32:12
Truly is. Last question for you.

Michael Permack 32:14
For sure.

Umar Hameed 32:15
What makes you happy?

Michael Permack 32:17
So I don't actually like the word happy. I like to show our joy.

Umar Hameed 32:22

Michael Permack 32:22
What gives me joy, there's a few things first, so my family travel, golf, transformational leadership was amazing. And just, just making a difference in people's lives. You know, when I, when I completed an assignment for a client or one of our team members complete system assignment. And they go, "Wow, thank God, we hired you," that's that's joy because we made such a difference. Yeah, it's your heart. Exactly. It's not the pocketbook of flow, of course you get paid. That's a given. But it's what difference do we make in their lives? And that's, that gives me joy.

Umar Hameed 33:10
That makes me happy too. Michael, thanks so much for being on the program.

Michael Permack 33:13
Thank you are you're awesome.

Umar Hameed 33:15
Thank you so much. And looking forward to our next conversation.

Michael Permack 33:18
Yeah, you bet. Okay, see you later.

Umar Hameed 33:20
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitsselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of Neuro-Linguistic Programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.


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