Jared (@jsmarmen) is the founder of Barttron Inc. makers of the Chord Collar, a kind, smart Collar that will make the shock collar obsolete. He first began drawing up plans for Chord as a graduate engineering student at Johns Hopkins 2003 and never completely put it down. Before launching Chord, he was an engineer and product team lead for several military R&D projects, growing one $70k federal grant into a technology product line that generated a 24x return on investment.
Jared has a BS in physics from St. Mary’s College of MD, which is where he fell in love with his roommate's yellow lab Homer and later adopted Homer’s nephew Bart, the company's namesake. Jared has an MS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from Johns Hopkins, an old yellow lab named Nelson, and a very special puppy named Sprinkles. Barttron won the big check at the Accelerate Baltimore pitch night in April 2017 and launched a pre-order crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo in July 2018.
Podcast Highlights:
- Know your customer
- Build your team from superstars from your past jobs
- You have to hit a big milestone in the first 48hrs when crowdfunding
Contact Jared:
[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]
Umar Hameed 0:06
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone. This is Umar Hameed, your host and welcome to the no limit selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how to make you better, stronger, faster. Get ready for another episode.
Umar Hameed 0:27
Hello everyone Today I've got Jared Marmon. Here he is the founder of cord. Jared, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. So Jared, you've got this amazing device. It's a collar that goes on dogs to help owners train their dogs in an elegant, scientifically proven method that has revolutionary results. Tell me about the technology.
Jared Marmen 0:48
It's basically just applying animal behavior, the stuff that's happened in the last 20 years with the mobile technology we have or we can no too high precision, you know where the dog is in relation to you and understand what we want it to do it, it's very simple than when you think about it. Just to always be there chaperoning the dog when you're not that's that's a big problem. And the other problem is dog owners not knowing what to do. Because there's, there's all sorts of stuff you need to figure out. And it turns out that they're really simple. But we make a complicated, so it's just guiding you through the simple things to do to to have your dog fit into your lifestyle, whatever that is.
Umar Hameed 1:27
So working through an owner says, okay, you know, I need my dog trained, rather than go get a trainer, right? Yesterday, I was talking to a client, he says, hold on just for a second. And he was ending a training session with his dog. The trainer came with this choke culture, and he goes a choke collar is the best thing ever. And I was thinking No, it's not record is better. It's certainly
Jared Marmen 1:46
a method. My my theory, and I think the research backs us up is if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. If there's something in you that
Umar Hameed 1:55
that's worse to live by anything,
Jared Marmen 1:57
probably. But if it's like if you have to justify something by they don't feel that they're different. On the end, we're all mammals, and we all learn the same. And and our you know, our target customers for this are our dog owners pet companion pets, and it doesn't usually feel right. If it doesn't feel right, you're probably just my theory, you're justifying something that you probably don't really want to do. There's a better way, you just need to find it. And we're the better way.
Umar Hameed 2:22
So let me This is my understanding of your technology that Sally has a Schnauzer called Bob, and she wants to try and she gets your technology, right? She gets the collar charges up. Not to shock the dog but to be active, right puts it on the dog. Right? She has an app that you download. Yes, answers a couple of questions. One of them take a picture of the dog. So it's very personalized. And then she you ask her questions like, you know, how do you get your dog's attention? She goes, Oh, I call him Bob. Right. And she records it in my phone. So the collar understands when I hear bob i know is a command comes
Jared Marmen 2:58
in a couple ways. So it's the it's the it's the voice recognition. So the caller hears her say about say Bob it knows it's Bob will start to vibrate, that vibration is a very good way to get their attention not not to scare them or or incite fear just to it. That sense of touch works very well with them. And then also, we'll play we can play that through the collar to so the dog knows his name's Bob. But here's Bob, it looks around that sound comes from the collar they pick that up right
Umar Hameed 3:24
away. so brilliant. So one of the things you need to know is how quickly Bob responds. So how does your app acknowledge that as an owner, do you have like a little timer, you hit go,
Jared Marmen 3:34
Oh, no, we it's designed to be really hands off. And the app is really for for setting things up. The collar measures that we want the phone back in your pocket when you're playing with your dog, because we learned early on that it's very unnatural to hold a phone and pet your dog and throw a ball and pull out dog treats the phone, the phone needs to be away. But we measure just you know, the millisecond level. This is when you said something this is when the collar vibrated This is when the acceleration stopped in this direction and started in this direction and brilliant. All that data, you know, ai buzzwords, you know, neural networks. I mean, that's really what it flows into, to optimize when we apply that vibration. So that, you know, we start you out playing with your dog and we're gonna say, All right, let the dog go away, call it give it a treat, give back all you're doing great. It's been five minutes, stop, don't too much. So that a week later, two weeks later, you can open the door, let the dog out, we'll do the same thing. And you can feel comfortable knowing how the dog is going to go to where I put this invisible boundary. And it's going to hear me it's going to hear these signals, it's going to get alerted it's going to start to come back not out of fear of Oh, if I go too far I'm gonna get hurt out of this is this is where you want me and when I listen to you. You pay attention to me rub my belly give me treats,
Umar Hameed 4:42
right? That's what motivates and so they're going to hear Sally's voice say Bob and then the vibration goes Oh, wait a minute, I'm getting to the edge of my
Jared Marmen 4:50
I don't even know if they even know what they even know if they know they're getting the edge like Oh, she's calling me She caught when she calls me. Sometimes treats fall out of her pocket or she rolls my bell or throws that ball. Whatever it is, I mean, that's, those are the things it's like a puzzle to them. They're always trying to figure out what to do next to make, you know, to make us happy.
Umar Hameed 5:07
So if Bob jumps up on the table, and that's something you don't want, right? How do you train the collar tell Bob don't go on the test.
Jared Marmen 5:13
So the main premise is, don't let them do it in the first place, right sense that they're going we know they're there. It's the whole idea that you can see it happening, right? It probably after you know, the first couple of times, you can stop it, because you can see their eyes and you can see what they're doing. And you can see the tail movement. It's detecting that detecting that location, and it's easy to tell, okay, the dog is just going to lay underneath the table. And I think that's great, because my feet are cold and winter. But when I see you stop, and I see the head go up, that's when we say, Hey, what are you doing, come over here, let's go do this. Let's do something else. And then they slowly learn. It's not rewarding for me to go over here and put my head on top of the table because I never get what I want. But when I go sit over here, we're gonna we're gonna prompt you say, hey, she's sitting where you want her during dinner, get up, go give her a treat. It's, oh, well, when I sit over here during dinner, I get a treat. When I go put my head on the table, you ignore me. So it, it's stuff like that, that it's hard for us to pick up day to day because it's just not normal. For us. It's not as active as we'd like it to be. One of
Umar Hameed 6:12
the things I liked about the technology is sometimes you can see improvement for a long time. But this technology, lets you know, that hey, this improvement happening, right? They stopped sooner, right? Came back faster. It might have been loved by half a second, right? But it's improving.
Jared Marmen 6:30
Right? That's and that's, uh, you know, I, I started the company, and it was all technology because that's what I was an engineer, I wanted to make stuff. And I early on met a couple great animal animal behaviorists and they put me on the right track because I was just gonna build a better shock collar because I didn't know any better. I just wanted a shock collar right at the barrier wire. And they just, we pivoted, they showed me this research. It was amazing. And then, over the next couple years, I realized that the problem is human psychology, right? It's that you talk to a dog owner, what's your problem? What did you try? Why didn't it work? I can't do it. My dog can't do it. My dog stupid. I don't have time. None of that's true. It's it's the doubt that creeps in when it's not working right away. And that's the the most powerful thing for us is, hey, it felt like you didn't do anything. It felt like your dog didn't stay. But But he actually stayed half a second longer than yesterday. And we did that when you walked in the lease today. And he was pulling, you actually walk 20 feet further. And I know it felt like you didn't go anywhere. But people who were where you were last week and where you are today. Next week, their dog never pulls on the leash again. You're almost there. Stick with it. Right? That's that's the kind of thing where if you had that, you know, dog trainer next to you the whole time, they'd be telling you that you'd be full of confidence. But what happens is we go home and we're like, oh, I can't do it. I can't do it. He just doesn't. I've got I don't have the special dog. But they're all the same, you know, at some level.
Umar Hameed 7:49
And what's nice is that's the reward mechanism for the humans.
Jared Marmen 7:52
Oh, absolutely. That's the that's the key. It's crazy. But the it everyone wants to ask about the technology. Everyone asks about animal behavior. And that's, that's great. The problem that we need to solve is between our ears. Brilliant.
Umar Hameed 8:05
Have you seen that ad for Geico where mcgruff the crime fighting dog is there? I definitely have. I can't remember. So I'm gonna put a link in the show notes. This is so funny. It's all about people talking baby. Talk to dogs. Right?
Umar Hameed 8:18
Right, right? Does graphy Buffy want to go? So, let's get back to a little bit of history. We'll come back to this company. Sure. So in 90 seconds, tell tell us who you are and what you do.
Jared Marmen 8:31
I'm a engineer I so it's strange. I got to all this I was a physics major and always very, you know, on that side and very left brain right brain whatever brain that side is, and but always interested in psychology and and that's how we met. Right? When you when you came to accelerate Baltimore, I mean, instantly, I'm like, Yeah, you're you're preaching the choir with me. Just it really interests me how how we can use technology to make our lives better. And this, this area just seems so neglected to me of you talk to people like I want this to end I want this to stop. And I'm like, we have the parts waiting for someone to do it waiting for someone to do it finally could take it any longer. And I just I just did it and the way it dovetailed into, you know, luckily, some of the experiences I had working for the military, with with navigation, robotics, autonomy, stuff like that, where I could see how it can be applied that way and say, Well, here are all the parts. Why do I need to bury a wire? Why? Why do I need to be there all the time to watch something? Why would I want to set a webcam up? I can put a little device on there that knows exactly where the dog is and what it should be doing. Why can I communicate it with it that way? So that's really driven me and it just it will change. It'll make people's lives better, make their pets lives better, and that will be great. And then the next part of that, you know, solve these problems initially of keeping your dog safe, right? outdoor fences is the big one. You want to keep them safe. keep yourself safe. Safe, do the same thing inside right now people use baby gates put them in a kennel more than they want to. or excessive barking annoying behavior. That's the other big one. And that's kind of how we introduce the product to the to the pet owner to the consumer. But after that, when you have this technology there, and we have that data, giving them games, giving the mentally challenging things to do help, you know, using those noses where they want a job, help them detect cancer early, it's just send them a little kitten, say here, do you smell this? Do you smell this, go check my friend, you know, he's been right 80% of the time and you want to go to the doctor. it'll, it'll be liberating for the pet owner and the pet. And it's there's just so much potential when this technology is used the right way where you know, you can look at it the bad way, we're creating robot dogs, just dystopian. The way I look at it is we're just taking away the inconvenience, giving you more time, you know less, you're not worried about something, you're not cleaning up a mess, you're you're snuggling on the couch, you're getting a witness kiss, you're seeing a wagging tail, like we can make that happen more often. And the more that happens, the less dogs end up in shelters, less dogs that get returned to it. And you know, everyone ends up singing on the mountain like that co commercial or
Umar Hameed 11:10
coming up with an idea. and building a company around it, right? Walk me through this your idea, you need to get programmers developers. So that was step by step.
Jared Marmen 11:23
Now that would tell me about so that was the easy part because I worked with a bunch of great ones. And just people I'd worked with over the years, just tap them. And we've always had a lot of ideas. And we've done some stuff on the side before and this time. It's like Nah, I'm serious. Like here, here's the company incorporation. Here's the stock certificate. Here's the patent attorney like I'm not fooling around this time. And so so finding the engineers was easy. on the business side, coming from the military Department of Defense, I knew that that's where I had a hole of marketing to people not run company. But that one part of the Gulf. So how
Umar Hameed 12:01
do you keep going because you've gone through trials and tribulations where you're trying to get investors, we'll talk about them in a minute. But people are working. And they need to see an end in sight as your goal line is being moved. So talk to me
Jared Marmen 12:16
about how you do that. As a leader, you show progress, and and you have to do a bunch of everything. But to continue to show progress and say, here's where we were, and here's her where we are. And then sometimes just to go out and you know, talk to the people talk to the dog trainers talk to the pet owners that we're testing with, and and hear their excitement. And in your head, you're like guys taking so long, and this should be better. And then they see a little bit of it. They light up like oh, this is great. I'm so excited. And they're meeting you at eight o'clock in the morning at Patterson Park when it's 44 degrees outside. And you're like, I can't believe this person is meeting me here at this time. They're like, Oh, this is great. I'm so excited. Okay, that's why we're doing it. And, and just to just to keep keep moving forward and the things you learn and to make it better. And you know, you have to you see all the problems, but just to put, but but there's all this great stuff. But you're you know, you're you're you're 10 months ahead and your brain just to go back and say, well, you you don't know anything about this. Let me go back to the things that I thought were awesome three years ago, they're new to you. And just you kind of have to keep that in the top of your head sometimes. is something I've learned. And yeah, the the other weird thing I just had this experience the other day, where people expect me to be some kind of dog trainer, right? I'm the worst. Like, that's the reason I'm doing this because I was so terrible. Like, oh, yeah, well, you're some kind of dog expert. And like me, No, God, no, I'm the worst. I'm so confident
Umar Hameed 13:41
whisper.
Jared Marmen 13:42
Like, just this weekend, my two dogs run because of my three year old open the gate, and I'm in the neighborhood and the other is pulling on the leash. And I'm yelling at my dogs. I'm trying my kids out of the road and like people are looking at me. I'm like, yeah, I'm the guy that started the company. I started it because I was so bad at it. And there's a better way. So it's just, it's it's weird to have to remind people about that. So I don't know. Does anyone start something because they were it was solved already. I mean, I started it out of a need.
Umar Hameed 14:11
Oh, almost every invention, right? It's like this. Why isn't somebody solve this?
Jared Marmen 14:15
right? Exactly. And I got, I just got tired of waiting.
Umar Hameed 14:18
You've got people you got payroll, you've got not enough sales yet.
Jared Marmen 14:23
We've won.
Jared Marmen 14:26
Well, if you know it was I said no. I said no. And then I said, Well, if you want to pay me that much for a prototype guy, I would gladly send it to you and she'll be an investor. Yeah.
Umar Hameed 14:35
And so now it's getting more investors and taking this thing that's working now. Yep. And turning it into a real business. Yes. So what's that experience? What's it been like? What's it like now?
Jared Marmen 14:47
Right? It's it's a, it's again, it's putting it out there were just the first time of putting one in the mail and sending it to Nova Scotia, England, the two places we send them and just having someone open that box and I can't walk down the street or get in my car and fix what was ever wrong with it. And getting to the point where you download the app, pull the thing out of the box, turn it on, and it worked like well, it was really awesome. And it's the kind of stuff where you, you toil so long in the background, and it kind of gets disheartening, because you're like, I'm working on stuff a customer, a dog owner, what they will never see who cares how this thing gets loaded, or this thing communicates with that. But it's hardware, it's software, it's a network, it's, it's an interface, it's all got to be there. And it's hard to do. But it's hard to replicate in a way. So that, that, that's what makes it worth it. That's the that's what I tell myself. So what's the plan for the next three months? Sure. So we're gonna relaunching, we're we're just finishing up complete re relaunch of our website, all of our social stuff, it kind of let it get stale on purpose. We just want to everything new, the new collar, the new app, everything looks new. And then we'll we're pre selling through Indiegogo, they contacted us just didn't think I would, I would do crowdfunding. And they made a really good case. And they've been very helpful. And one other electronic suppliers arrow did this. review of our design gave it a seal like a third party seal of this is this is all here, they've got it. Everything's feasible, right? This isn't just some people that threw something together to try to trick you out of your money. This thing's all real. It's buildable, this thing works. So we'll be doing that in a few weeks. And it's very exciting. It's very exciting to say the least.
Umar Hameed 16:31
So what's kind of interesting is I was interviewing Nick Gilson, he runs a snowboard club, I
Jared Marmen 16:37
was some of that there was great. And one of the things he ended up doing was he tried so hard to get the channel right stores to pick up his his product, right and finally decided, it's never going to work, we need to go directly to the end user. It's funny because I listened to that. And I thought to myself, well, what if I'm the reverse of his story, where I thought we're not going to start that way are our target demographic is younger, they find things online. You know, this first innovative user is isn't looking for something that they find at a store. They want to find it this way. And so we've always focused on that channel. Well, what if I'm doing it backwards?
Jared Marmen 17:17
I'll find out in a few weeks here. Yeah. But it's
Jared Marmen 17:20
interesting. Like, it's funny that that's the reaction I had. I'm like, at first like, why I'm so smart. I knew to do it the other way. And then you're like, wait a minute, what if it's the whole thing's backwards? And you know, I should have I shouldn't be working
Umar Hameed 17:31
on snores dog spelled backward is gone. Exactly.
Jared Marmen 17:34
Exactly. I should go to churches. And
Umar Hameed 17:38
I was just thinking, you know, my wife would pay you a sizable amount of money. It's like, help my husband stop snoring. Can you recall or kind of give him a zap or something, right? Or some audio feedback, rollover. It's one of
Jared Marmen 17:49
the other things I wanted to do this, this whole idea of precise relative positioning, I'm tall and I would notice on a long drive, I get the car in my head would hit the ceiling, right car. And by the time two hours later, I got where I was going, hunched over the steering wheel, I'm like, Oh, this is why I'm shrinking. Like, well, it's easy. Put a sensor here, put a sensor on the shoulder sensor on the neck. And you know, for a human I think an electric shock, especially if you put it on yourself it just wait, I don't know what to do that I don't want to do that. Because I become one building just the static electricity. I would go from surface to surface touching everything. I'm still zap myself. It's very powerful. I can't believe we're talking about well, I was does the exact opposite. But for humans, I have thought about that. It's a little reminder, here's
Umar Hameed 18:33
the here's the realization and I said shock for a moment. What's intriguing to me is somebody that is snoring. The decibel level of that, and it doesn't wake them up. Right is astounding. And so I was wondering if there was a tone? Would they actually hear it? I don't
Jared Marmen 18:51
know. That's a that's it. That's interesting,
Umar Hameed 18:53
maybe their mother's voice channel. But
Unknown Speaker 18:57
there's always something
Umar Hameed 19:00
if this crowdfunding goes, Well, what does success look like?
Jared Marmen 19:06
Keeping the band together, right? It's it we we know it's there. And we know we have a good piece. But having the solution there's there's a million ways to fail, right? So it's to keep it going to get it out there to have more users to have more feedback to you know, to find those evangelizing users right that we found the ones that that email you like, Is it ready? Did you forget to tell me it was ready right now you're gonna be the first one though, trust me, and then you're gonna tell everyone you know, just to get it on them get their feedback. It's it's a bit it's a lot. It's not there's so many parts to this. And there's so much old way of doing things right. And this is, but you find people like we found them already that are like, I found you because I look for these weird words and these weird words on your website. And like I know they told me not to put the weird words on like buried I'm so dumb and it's just Getting them the product fast enough iterating fast enough with them and starting to grow with without ever compromising is the big thing. I think
Umar Hameed 20:10
an essential part of leadership is having that integrity piece, right? We don't compromise. Because in the in the moment, it looks expedient to do so. Right. If you don't hold on to those foundations, then you can go down a path that doesn't serve the long,
Jared Marmen 20:27
right. Turn off of the company. Absolutely. I mean, there's definitely that that core set of why we want to do and why we're doing it this way. And and sometimes it makes you do things you don't want to do. Make it take longer and harder. But if you then you always look back and say, Oh, I'm glad we did it that way.
Umar Hameed 20:46
Right? How long has this journey been from idea to a sitting down here?
Jared Marmen 20:50
Wow. I mean, I was in grad school Hopkins in 2003. When I got married and moved and first had this realization of like, this underground wire is dumb. Like it's, it's, it's lost its value. I don't want to do it this way. I want to build this thing. And then I looked at the the size and the weight and the cost of the power of how I could have done it 2003 and said, it's prohibitively expensive, but I never really lost it and did some other sort of related things. And then about 2012. Working on another project. I said, Oh, it's all it's all here. Easy. This is so easy. Let's do this now. And it's just the right time of everything of happening. The to work on a project where I met an animal behaviorist, who I had read that she was great. I don't know how she knew to do this. But she's like, ah, read this paper. Write this paper like, this is amazing. It's like, Yeah, I know. Now read this paper. Now do this. I'm like, Alright, I get it. You change my mind. Like, I had no idea. I was just always told you do this. You're the alpha. They're wolves. None of that's true. No, I mean, there's none of that's true. And it just all happened at the right time. And in the way that the tools we have available now, not just those parts, but the design tools that are available for relatively inexpensive. I mean, you couldn't do this 10 years ago, the network infrastructure, like every piece we need is there. And boggles my mind. It doesn't exist yet. And I'm glad it doesn't now, but I just for years, I just expected to wake up and see it. And then I see what's out there now. Like, it's interesting, I'm glad you're doing it, I'm glad you're spending money marketing it, you're missing the mark by you know, this wide margin, and But please, you know, go out there and introduce people to the idea of putting something on their on their dog or their cat.
Umar Hameed 22:35
What's something you know, now that you wish you knew in 2012, when you started this adventure,
Jared Marmen 22:41
how long it would take and the big the big reason is keeping other people's expectations in check, because you have such a responsibility to the to, you know, the your co founders, the people, you know, the people you work with your family, and I don't know, I probably got him too excited. I feel and right, everyone's stuck through it. But I know how hard it is now. You know, at first like, of course, this you guys see how great this is. And everyone sees how great this is. And we know how good we are. This is going to be amazing. And by this point, we should be here and we'll do this. And then you have success. But it's not that successful. Of course not. It's harder than that. And we need to do this and this takes more time. But I told you this would happen. Okay, stick with me. Here's the next thing and you you hit a milestone you but you don't hit this milestone. It's like, Alright, stick with me. And you got to tell yourself that too. Because that, you know, I have no choice. Like, this is what I'm doing. I'm gonna find a way. I hope I'm not dragging you down with me.
Umar Hameed 23:40
And I know that my children's future Oh, rice.
Jared Marmen 23:43
Adventure. Exactly. So it that is probably the one thing of and I think now, you see the success and it's you know, when when we hit it will be the overnight success like oh, yeah, you guys, you guys came up with this idea. And you did it and you know, right away like, yeah, we're an overnight success. After years of toil no one will ever know about right and a feeling that's the normal story, but that wants to talk about that. I saw
Umar Hameed 24:09
this brilliant program. I think it was called fame in the 20th century. It was a British show. And that particular episode, they were looking at Elvis Presley, what his estate was worth when he died, right. And when the human got out of the way, and the myth could take over, right, just like quadruple overnight. Right? And so I think people just only want to hear the story of overnight success. Oh,
Jared Marmen 24:30
absolutely. It's, it gives you hope. Right. Yeah. It's
Umar Hameed 24:33
like a health club membership. Right. Well get skinny write songs. I have this membership right now.
Jared Marmen 24:37
Are you crazy, right? If they told you like, for four years, you'll have to work and think you know, have just make it hard and hard and hard and hard, hard, hard. And you know,
Umar Hameed 24:47
no one would do it to founders of companies out there right now that a toying with an idea right? Or just started the first year right? What are three pieces of advice you'd give them to get them over the finish line,
Jared Marmen 24:59
just Know that it's going to it's going to take longer. And I think you'll realize when you get there that if it didn't take longer, it probably wasn't worth it some something else would happen. No, it's just the overnight success. There has to. There's a catch, right? There's, there's, there's some catch if it happens that way. Get the get the product in front of the customer as fast as you can. And I knew that, like Steve blanks, like, I love like, there's some things that I just absolutely believe in. But for a while I was different, right? And no, you're not different, ever, ever different. And like our what we need to do this before we can give it away, you know, give it to someone to test and we need to finish that part. And luckily, I have some really good people who were like, started doing things. And they're like, Well, here, look this parts done. Oh, well, if that's done, then we can go do this. We know. Go put it on someone else. Okay, thanks.
Umar Hameed 25:51
You know, so right away getting the answer.
Jared Marmen 25:53
Right. Even if you you say, you know that.
Jared Marmen 25:57
go even further, like, go even further. And find the people that that I mean, I found it's it's you find amazing people that are like, I did this, and how's this work? Oh, you broke it. Thank you. That piece, and I never would have thought that that wouldn't have looked right to you. And you just need to do that. As soon as possible. It is a in I knew that. I read that. And I still didn't do it enough. I still
Umar Hameed 26:26
haven't done it enough. And the third thing,
Jared Marmen 26:28
oh my gosh, there's a third thing.
Jared Marmen 26:32
Just it's not over till you stop. Right. And that, you know, I had to go back and go back to work for someone else for a year. And that was that was hard. And but if you stop you stop, right. And it's the same thing. It's that it's that overnight thing and just you'll get there you'll if you're if you're doing the right thing, and you're flexible and and you're willing to make those mistakes that lead to the successes. Just don't stop. I mean, I'll I won't stop. Like is I'm not gonna stop. So.
Umar Hameed 27:07
Brilliant. Thanks so much for sitting down with me. Thanks for having me.
Umar Hameed 27:19
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