Joël Le Bon, PhD. is a Marketing & Sales Professor at the Johns Hopkins University Carey Business School and the Co-Founder & Executive Director of The Science of Digital Business Development initiative and program. Before becoming a professor, he was a Strategic Account Manager for XEROX Corporation and had sales and sales management roles in the media industry where he won several all-time sales awards.
As a professor, he has earned 24 international research, teaching awards and distinctions, and is the first sales educator to have received all the teaching awards from the major academic marketing associations. He is the author of two books on key account management and technology, and competitive intelligence and the sales force. He holds a BA in Management Science, an MSc in Marketing and Strategy, and a PhD in Marketing from Paris Dauphine University was a Postdoctoral Scholar at PennState University Institute for the Study of Business Markets and is an alumnus of the Kellogg ITP program of Northwestern University. He has worked and lived in Europe, Asia, and the United States, and was born in the island of Mauritius (Indian Ocean).
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[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]
Umar Hameed 0:06
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone. This is Umar Hameed, your host and welcome to The No Limits Selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how to make you better, stronger, faster, get ready for another episode.
Umar Hameed 0:38
Today I have the privilege of having Joël Le Bon. Here with me today. Joël, welcome to the program.
Joël Le Bon 0:44
Thank you. Well, I'm pleased to be here with you.
Umar Hameed 0:46
So you teach marketing and sales at Johns Hopkins Carey School of Business?
Joël Le Bon 0:51
Yes, I'm a marketing and sales professor. I'd like to say my official title is marketing professor. But I like to call myself a marketing and sales professor because I do keep sales. And I think sales is as important as marketing. In fact, marketing is good, as long as you can sell what you have to.
Umar Hameed 1:10
Yes. The ultimate reality for marketing is Do people buy and I was just talking to this company, what they do is they set appointments.
Joël Le Bon 1:22
Umar Hameed 1:22
And they've gotten 75 appointments with plant managers around North America for this client. And guess how many they closed? 100, right. They're like, okay, it's not a marketing profit. It's as a sales problem fee and 75 conversations, even accidentally, you had to close one door on the app. So interesting things. The reason I've been so excited to have this conversation is we met at the peak performance mindset retreat in Las Vegas earlier this year.
Joël Le Bon 1:55
Umar Hameed 1:57
And the whole reason for the retreat was to really, you know, how do we get the right mindset to build the careers and the businesses and the lives that we want?
Joël Le Bon 2:05
Umar Hameed 2:06
And who put that on?
Joël Le Bon 2:07
Get hard cash, wonder, the founder of the Sales 3.0 Conference?
Umar Hameed 2:12
Yeah. And the magazine. Pretty cool guy. And so you're minding your own business. The conference starts Friday morning. And you hear that, you know, Friday afternoon, you're going to go racing Lamborghinis. Yeah. Were you excited to do that?
Joël Le Bon 2:26
Yeah. In fact that you don't do it. Because I already did that, you know, years ago. Yes, years ago. And it was great. So I just decided I'm not going to do that. I will, I will do the golf recording one. The next day. And so I just had fun recording my friends doing the you know, car driving.
Umar Hameed 2:47
Joël Le Bon 2:47
Umar Hameed 2:47
So that evening, you know that the next morning is going to be either a hole in one you have experience, or skydiving attend them jump yet from 13,000 feet yet knew with certainty. There's no way I'm going to jump. Oh, yeah. Tell me about that mindset when you said I'm not going to jump. What were you thinking?
Joël Le Bon 3:06
Well, it well. So I know, I know, part of this mindset conference. And in fact that the conference has, I was a an observer, because Gayheart made me, chief academic researcher of the mindset conference, so excellent. So to to research and understand how people change their mindset and, and and and then he said, so you, the Saturday you you you can do the skydiving or the whole point one garfi if you want I say skydiving? No, no, it's, I will never do that. So of course, sign me for the holy one because I play golf. And I would I would love to do a while to learn how to get my mindset on that. And that's it. So no, it was not even a question not before.
Umar Hameed 3:59
Joël Le Bon 3:59
The day before. It was a...
Umar Hameed 4:01
So that evening, and that's where I met you. I came to dinner yesterday to be teaching the next day. Yeah, there was a gentleman there by the name of john devore. Right. He started telling stories about he was going to take a skydiving. That's the instructor. So what in his stories what in his message? Got you to leave the harbor and contemplate I'm not going to do the whole in one. I'm going to do the skydiving. So explain that internal process.
Joël Le Bon 4:27
It was not even at the dinner in the evening. Because so I was I was sitting not too far away from him and he was talking about he's experienced great, great guy, great, great experience.
Umar Hameed 4:38
He works Red Bull...
Joël Le Bon 4:42
Umar Hameed 4:42
Joël Le Bon 4:43
Umar Hameed 4:44
Joël Le Bon 4:45
Yeah, exactly. And he was talking about his family. He's from Alaska, and as long as he's listening to his experience, and I found that very, very interesting his personal journey and why choose to do to do skydiving. And for a living because this this is his passion and, and I was just listening. And then I asked him a question, why do you do that? Like, I understand it's your passion, right? Why do you do that? And then he said, well for freedom. And then I look at, I thought we were already in the land of the free, you know? So it's, and so why do you have to be in the sky to feel free? And then you say, well, it's it's, it's really about freedom. So of course, freedom is very important, right? As a feeling.
Umar Hameed 5:40
Okay, well, let me just challenge that a little bit.
Joël Le Bon 5:43
Umar Hameed 5:44
Sometimes people have the lives that they have.
Joël Le Bon 5:48
Umar Hameed 5:48
And they have this illusion of freedom, but they got a very structured life.
Joël Le Bon 5:52
Umar Hameed 5:52
That is a gilded cage.
Joël Le Bon 5:57
Umar Hameed 5:57
So it gives the illusion of freedom, but they have responsibilities. And this is the safe place I stay in.
Joël Le Bon 5:57
Umar Hameed 5:59
It's just like joining a health club. It's like, you don't have to go there. Just knowing that you have a membership makes you feel healthier.
Joël Le Bon 6:08
Umar Hameed 6:08
But please go on. So he's talking about freedom.
Joël Le Bon 6:10
Yeah. And the way he put that in a very simple way. That got me thinking about what you just said, the very concept of freedom for as a human being. Yeah. Right. I mean, this is, this is what got me thinking there is there is something very interesting with skydiving is you face your own mortality.
Umar Hameed 6:36
Right? in a real way.
Joël Le Bon 6:38
This is real, right? I mean, this is real, that you have the freedom to choose. So this is what got me thinking about the freedom to choose something which can be dramatic.
Umar Hameed 6:54
Joël Le Bon 6:54
For you but also, for your family. Because, in fact, when you're gone, you're gone and your family remains, and there's a huge impact on so many other people that you can choose. But John is, for me, john is a is, is a hero, right? Is is a is a professional is an artist, but he's a hero, because because he has a family. He has children. And and he does that in a very, very professional way. So it master is his passion. And his craft. And, and choice freedom. Yes. Right. So there's no way we can do that with just one john. But we can think about how do we really in our life, with our craft, here free. And and then I started to think about, it's the freedom of choice. And then I started to think about Well, the problem I had was that was also I said to my family, in fact, a couple of weeks before going to the skydiving, skydiving, the mindset retreat with the skydiving is a we were talking about that with my family. And I said no, we don't do that. It's not something we do. Because, because it's can be very traumatic and, and I never thought about the freedom part.
Umar Hameed 8:34
Yeah. So you hear this thing? If you're thinking freedom, when you went to bed that night? Yes. Were you I'm going to jump or was it still I'm not gonna jump?
Joël Le Bon 8:42
No. So. So what I did, I don't know if you noticed that where you were there, I texted my family and I
Umar Hameed 8:48
You mention that the next day.
Joël Le Bon 8:50
So I started the thing I then you know, kind of shut down and started to really think deeply about what freedom means for, for from from for me, but also for my family. I mean, my children, you know, you want to have children and raise them for their own freedom. Yeah, to embrace the world and to feel free. And when you tell your family, this is something we don't do, because of course, you're scared and you want to protect them. Are you really protecting them by telling them something they shouldn't do? If it's about freedom? So I texted them, and I said, What do you do you think I jump out of a plane or not tomorrow, yeah.
Umar Hameed 9:27
And your children report back, yes, absolutely.
Joël Le Bon 9:30
Do it. One of my daughter, the one we had a discussion a couple of weeks before going to the retreat. And she was turning in19 inn October. She just said if you do it, I do it because in August we were talking about that. She said oh, this is what I want to do for my birthday. It's such a good read I do it. I said okay, you do it with the same instructor that and the other children they say just Just do it. And at night my wife never replied. So I go to, so that dinner is over. And then I go to my room and and I really think about what is it that I'm gonna do tomorrow? It's, it's, it's crazy because you go to sleep every night. It's part of your day. It's part of your routine. You're not thinking about, I mean, you think about what's going to happen tomorrow, but usually it's already on your agenda. And you know, you kind of know what you have to do. That night, I didn't know what I was going to do the next day, because I started to think about, maybe I should do it. But I always said I should not I will not and we will not. So it got me thinking about what would be the next day.
Umar Hameed 10:46
So you wake up in the morning? Yep. And then what were your thoughts that morning?
Joël Le Bon 10:51
It's literally I wake up with some in my in my mind, Jackson Five, you want to start to do something, you got to start to do something,
Umar Hameed 11:03
Joël Le Bon 11:03
It's thought that that was the song. And that's, that's crazy.
Umar Hameed 11:07
That's a sign.
Joël Le Bon 11:08
Yes, he was a sign I have that song in my mind, when I start to do something. better start. And, and then and then the next song was let it be I it was very strange. I wake up with you know, I like poetry. I like songs. I like this, because these are little, you know, treasures you keep in your mind. And sometimes they come back to you. Yes, meaning, and I woke up with this. And this is what you have in your mind. And but it says a lot. So I call my wife. And I say, so what do you think? She says, think about God. That's Oh, come on the text with description. She said, Well, you know what, I think you already said that you will do that.
Umar Hameed 11:59
In fact, it's not that she wanted to do it when you got married. I've shut her down.
Joël Le Bon 12:03
Oh, yeah. before we got married when we met, she said women always remember.
Umar Hameed 12:08
Yeah, remember that?
Joël Le Bon 12:09
Umar Hameed 12:10
So at some point, you decide that you're going to go with us to the place to jump, but you haven't decided to jump yet or not.
Joël Le Bon 12:19
So I went so we discussed and she might she remind me Why was Yes. Say No. And that she wanted to do it? And I also because, you know, I have her? And I said no, don't do that. You know, we don't have to do that. You know what, there's so many other things we can do you and that that was you know, when she was she was only 16 at that time. And then I said okay, so yeah, but the children said yes. The children said yes. You know, and this at all of them. This is our children, you know, and and then she said yes, of course they said yes. Their children said no. He said no. At that site said it's a...
Umar Hameed 13:00
So she's not happy?
Joël Le Bon 13:01
Umar Hameed 13:02
Joël Le Bon 13:02
She's, she's confused. Because Because because there's a contradiction between the the, the man, the person that Joelle shows, and the men the person the father and the Joelle, she's talking to right now.
Umar Hameed 13:18
And I think if I'm quoting her correctly, I didn't hear her say this, but I heard you said it was like she was saying, you just met these people.
Joël Le Bon 13:24
Yes, that's true.
Umar Hameed 13:26
You know, me your life. And you met these people. Now you want to jump out of a frickin plane?
Joël Le Bon 13:30
Umar Hameed 13:30
So you get in the car with us.
Joël Le Bon 13:32
But I'm not jumping. I'm just going to watch.
Umar Hameed 13:36
We're going to the airfield to go jumping but you're not jumping.
Joël Le Bon 13:39
Umar Hameed 13:39
So you're in the back of the car.
Joël Le Bon 13:41
Umar Hameed 13:41
And you're ruminating should I go? Or should I not go?
Joël Le Bon 13:43
Umar Hameed 13:44
We get to this place.
Joël Le Bon 13:45
Umar Hameed 13:46
They take us in this room,
Joël Le Bon 13:47
Umar Hameed 13:48
To give us the contract.
Joël Le Bon 13:49
Umar Hameed 13:50
And to show us a video
Joël Le Bon 13:51
Umar Hameed 13:52
About You know, the dangers of jumping. Talk to me about the video.
Joël Le Bon 13:57
So the contract interview, scary.
Umar Hameed 14:01
Joël Le Bon 14:01
Very scary. disclosure. You see that? You know, basically they want you to know that you you can die and you are fully responsible of that which is your freedom.
Umar Hameed 14:12
Joël Le Bon 14:13
To live or to die, right?
Umar Hameed 14:15
This is probably the best video I've ever seen in my life. Because the guy's talking seriously like, you know, you could die or be injured and they show a frickin picture of an ambulance.
Joël Le Bon 14:23
Oh, yes. They show...
Umar Hameed 14:24
So their look, they want you to chicken out
Joël Le Bon 14:26
Yeah. Yeah, I they want you to be aware of everything what may happen before going to the plane you know, although um you know materials and you know why being in the plane you know, after the plane, you know, you can trust the plane, you can trust the material. You can. Yeah, it's on you.
Umar Hameed 14:43
And so the contract which was like a 10 pages, and it has this warning thing across the front.
Joël Le Bon 14:48
Umar Hameed 14:49
And to everybody else. The warning thing was like I didn't really see it. But in the mental state you were in,
Joël Le Bon 14:56
Oh, that was our...
Umar Hameed 14:56
that warning, looked really big.
Joël Le Bon 14:58
Oh, that was the only thing I was seeing.
Umar Hameed 15:00
Do you see in black and white? Or did you see it in color?
Joël Le Bon 15:02
No black, black and white.
Umar Hameed 15:03
Black and white., that's what it was. At that point. You're having serious doubts what was going on in your mind and your body and your heart?
Joël Le Bon 15:09
Well, so So I started to read. So there's a lot of things to read. And I started to write my name, and I'm writing my name. And I, and I stopped right there. Because I was thinking, you know, wow, we still haven't discussed this with my wife. Yeah. And I can see from the video that this can be dangerous. Of course, I know. This is maybe of course why I didn't want to do it yet. I'm freedom is important. So and, and then. And then the video comes back, you know, because it's, it's rotating. Yes. And then you did something great. Because I everyone, they were done with signing and off because they were prepared. They knew they were going to do that they prepare for the past two month mirrors just for the past two hours.
Umar Hameed 15:55
Joël Le Bon 15:57
So you shut that down PV down by choice, which was great. So I wanted to concentrate the manual. So asked me before, you know, you want to you know, we can talk about this? And I told you, yeah. I said no. I said no.
Umar Hameed 16:11
So what's happening at that point, we've shut off the video, you're still signing the papers, and then your thoughts are going very, very quickly,
Joël Le Bon 16:17
Umar Hameed 16:18
What were the thoughts in your head?
Joël Le Bon 16:21
Is this the right thing to do right now? Because I can, I can do it later, right? I can prepare my family, I can prepare my wife, I can prepare myself. And I can delete later. The problem here was that is my personal. You know, modal is your life is now right. So this is really my personal motto. Like I try to enjoy life as best as I can. And I like this song from john Mellencamp and your IPS now is very important. It's now for everyone. And and so for me, it was it's now. So now I am confronting myself with it's now your life or
Umar Hameed 17:02
So your belief system. I believe you need to do it now.
Joël Le Bon 17:06
Umar Hameed 17:06
But your body goes at that point. There is a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress. Yeah, you're showing visible signs that something is definitely not right. So this does struggle. Yeah. And your mind is using a really powerful tool rationalization and they don't need to do it. Now. I could do it later and make sure everything's okay. Right. So you've got these warring things going on. Yep. And at one point, you decide, and you say, Umar. I think I need help. Let's go. So what happened? What made you come to that realization that I can't do this myself? I need help.
Joël Le Bon 17:38
Um, firstly, I didn't know you.
Umar Hameed 17:42
Of course, [garbled]
Joël Le Bon 17:43
You're the guy you say jump, you know, with that song jump in the car. The guy say, Can I fell? It was funny because I was talking to us. The other songs I had in my mind this morning. So I don't know you. You say I can help you? Well, okay. I think that fine, very nice from you. But I don't know how to help my personal you know, struggle. I, I didn't also find a way from myself to also help me. I didn't know how to help me.
Umar Hameed 18:14
Joël Le Bon 18:14
Right. That personal, personal family, you know.
Umar Hameed 18:18
Joël Le Bon 18:18
Umar Hameed 18:19
...pause it right there. I suspect if somebody else was having that issue. Mm hmm. That you would have been very helpful that you would have known what to say, but maybe that would have jumped or arrived. But it wasn't you right doing it. So sometimes, when it's us, it changes the role. Right. Right. So anyway, what made you decide to trust me?
Joël Le Bon 18:39
Well, you shut that TV down. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you so you understood exactly what I was going through. And you said, in fact, and you let me decide. Because you asked me before, right when the TV was running, because you saw the contradiction in my mind. I said no. And then and then I say, Well, why not? So we I said, he said that ticket? It's the way nuts. You know, why not? Right? Why not?
Umar Hameed 19:08
So I'm not sure you remember when we went outside? Yes. No one else was around. You were shaking. who I was. Okay. My tears coming on your eyes. Okay. So this was like confronting that. Oh, yeah. That's it right. At that point. I was like you are in the grips of this major anxiety event. And then I showed you a technique called grounding. Mm hmm. That connects you to the center of the earth. Mm hmm. And that had an immediate impact. Do you remember what that impact was?
Joël Le Bon 19:37
Oh, totally. Yeah, it was it was quick. It was quick for me. It was it was actually what what you did were was reminding me who I was.
Umar Hameed 19:49
Joël Le Bon 19:51
By reminding me the importance of the importance of feeling alive. Right. And, and, and feeling, feeling that, you know, you you are there to, you know, to live your life. And, and and you are and you are unique, and you are strong. And you are powerful. And this is the case for all of us. And sometimes we forget that because of you know, struggle and rules and and all [garbled] right.
Umar Hameed 20:28
So show you how to ground and literally within 30 seconds.
Joël Le Bon 20:31
Umar Hameed 20:31
All the anxiety leaves your body. And...
Joël Le Bon 20:33
Yeah, I feel this is I just remembered that time was when I was going to defend my PhD. And...
Umar Hameed 20:40
Joël Le Bon 20:41
Yeah. And I said, Yeah,
Umar Hameed 20:42
So we grounded first to get you centered.
Joël Le Bon 20:43
Umar Hameed 20:44
And then we said, okay, I want you to make a movie in your mind of how this job should be. How you should be approved the movie, maybe get john channel, john, our fearless leader?
Joël Le Bon 20:58
Umar Hameed 20:59
How would you make it better? And then I got you to step into that movie. So you could program your neurology and what to do. And then I'd asked you tell me about a particular time you felt unstoppable. And you said when I defended my PhD FM, we got you to re live that emotion. So you had the power, you need it right. And then you're ready to go.
Joël Le Bon 21:18
Umar Hameed 21:19
And then I did something despicable and underhanded. What I did was what would your children think? If you didn't walk your talk. And that was a moral imperative, I link to the whole thing. And when that when I said that your whole body shifted the way you were standing, being, we got you to make a movie of what you really want to have happen and use this thing from applied years and to step into it, then we got you to feel unstoppable with that memory from the past of the defending of the PhD. And then I tied it in a nice boat with because I know your family is so important to you. That the shame over living the life you're telling them to live. Exactly. And from that moment, you were like, solid rights guy...
Joël Le Bon 22:05
Because you know...
Umar Hameed 22:06
And all of that happened in like, maybe five minutes.
Joël Le Bon 22:09
Yeah, I mean, for me if it.
Umar Hameed 22:11
Then you weren't sure?
Joël Le Bon 22:12
Yeah, it was for me it was it became obvious. Because because of the freedom. So who am I to tell my children don't do that? Of course, I'm the father. Or that's my job...
Umar Hameed 22:23
Joël Le Bon 22:23
...to free them.
Umar Hameed 22:25
To do that. And also when they want to do something
Joël Le Bon 22:27
Umar Hameed 22:27
And fear comes up, that if you were the personnel that fear shut you down, how can you Marley?
Joël Le Bon 22:31
Umar Hameed 22:33
So the freedom part was back giving yourself...
Joël Le Bon 22:35
Exactly so and, and and and showing them that dad was wrong.
Umar Hameed 22:41
Okay, so here's what I want to type. Before we part company is in sales, people confront the humanity, Mm hmm. Because some sales can go and go into accounts at a $10 million accounts, and are bold and amazing. And their dream is to close a billion dollar company. And all they need to do is the same presentation. But the internal fear, doubt comes up. And that sabotages their efforts. Mm hmm. So in this experience that you did, and thank you for being brave enough to share it with us today of not wanting to do something, then something changes and you decide to do it, then you get confronted with the fear and all the other pressure, then you overcome it? How? How would you equate that to sales? If you would training elite salespeople? How would you take this lesson? How would you put in sales language or mindset language that they could learn from your experience?
Joël Le Bon 23:39
So I like when you mentioned decide, it's really about deciding your choice, we have a choice. And when it comes to actually jumping out of a plane where you cannot go back, right? You you have the right. So you can you know, feel the fight of fight the fear. And so we I was able, you know, with with our discussion to fight the fear, and then and then I you know, we turn because you talked after me too, everyone jumped so that was great. He was actually a thrill. Sales is exactly the same thing, especially for being you know, contracts, customers. So you can fear the fight or fight, fight the fear and decide to face adversity. I think sales is really about the ability to take punches, and, and and to combat to bounce back and to face adversity, with no fear. But without that fear, you cannot fight back. So it's important to feel that fear to fight back and think that you can do anything. You can do anything if you are prepared. And in fact, the first fight is not the fight of the fist is the fight of the mind. Yeah. If you are prepared with your mind, just like you know With with you, when we did the grounding, and I was prepared now, to do that, it looks like I was already prepared, but that was not prepared for my children. But when you are prepared, anything can happen. And you just go. And sales is about also making sure that you feel that you are the only one who can make it happen. You are the only one, you are the only one for yourself. You are the only one for the customers. And it's all about you making the decision to be that person at that moment. So if you let that fear takes over, you only wasting time by giving time to that fear.
Umar Hameed 25:44
Joël Le Bon 25:45
So overcoming that fear gives you back your own personal choice of being...
Umar Hameed 25:54
Absolutely in the paradox is that fear. When you're in that fear mode, you're freaking awesome. You're at the height of your powers. And we use that fear to shut ourselves down.
Joël Le Bon 26:04
Umar Hameed 26:04
But if you just turn that energy around, it gives you the energy you need to execute.
Joël Le Bon 26:09
Umar Hameed 26:09
Because your reaction time is the fastest your ability to focus on what's most important.
Joël Le Bon 26:14
Umar Hameed 26:14
It's heightened powers.
Joël Le Bon 26:15
Yes. And you're aware of what's going on you are so into your...
Umar Hameed 26:20
Joël Le Bon 26:21
Is so you understand, you see, you feel it because I mean, I so I teach sales and in my different classes, I used to teach a concept which I call failed better because I think failure is very important.
Umar Hameed 26:37
Joël Le Bon 26:38
Fail better, fail.
Umar Hameed 26:40
That's a really good book title.
Joël Le Bon 26:41
Well, like I change it now to feel better. Because it's, it's, it's you have to face the situation where you can fear in the face of fear.
Umar Hameed 26:53
So fear better via beta is French can't help it, folks. Joelle, thank you so much for sitting down with me and being fearless in this conversation. Because most people would not admit to having that fear. Because we all want to be brave. And the reality is when you're the strongest among us, you openly share your experience.
Joël Le Bon 27:13
Exactly. I just wanted to be also brave for my children, just not foremost myself. And in fact, what was very nice is they told me afterwards they were very proud of me.
Umar Hameed 27:25
I'm gonna give you a high five. Thanks a lot. Let's go get lunch.
Joël Le Bon 27:29
Yes, thank you.
Umar Hameed 27:35
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitsselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of Neuro-Linguistic Programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.