August 16

Caroline Goyder on Delivering Presentations That Win


Caroline's extremely successful TEDx talk has over million views on YouTube and before that she worked for many years interviewing A-list Actors such as Helen Mirren (in case you've never heard of Caroline).

Caroline Goyder's global reputation as a speaker and voice coach is built on her warm, engaging, relaxed and highly practical style, and her expertise honed by her work with actors, teachers, broadcasters and the corporate sector. She worked at the Central School of Speech and Drama as a voice coach for over 10 years before launching her own company. She is regularly sought after by the media as an expert in her field and her work has featured on television and in numerous national and international newspaper articles.

Here are just some of her previous featurings...


  • The Huffington Post
  • Amazon
  • Financial Times
  • Google
  • GRAZIA Magazine
  • Red Magazine

Caroline speaks regularly at Henley Business School, School of Life and London Business Forum. Clients have included news anchors and reporters, actors, CEOS of FTSE 100 and 250 companies, a monarch and TV magicians amongst others.

She was named by Red magazine as one of Britain's top Coaches.

She has compiled all her knowledge regarding speaking into 3 highly rated books namely: The Star Qualities, Gravitas and her most recent, Find Your Voice.

[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]

Umar Hameed 0:01
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone! My name is Umar Hameed, I'm your host on The No Limits Selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how you can become better, stronger, faster. Just before we get started, I've got a question for you, do you have a negative voice inside your head? We all do, right? I'm gonna help you remove that voice and under 30 days guaranteed, not only remove it, but transform it. So instead of the voice that sabotages you, there's one that propels you to much higher levels of performance and success. There's a link in the show notes, click on it to find out more. All right! Let's get started.

Umar Hameed 0:39
Hello, everyone! Welcome to another episode of The No Limits Selling Podcast. Today, we have Caroline Goyder, here with us today. She's written a book called "Gravitas" and I want to know more about it. Welcome to the program.

Caroline Goyder 0:53
Hi, Umar. Great to be here.

Umar Hameed 0:54
So to kick off, why don't you define "Gravitas"? What does that actually mean?

Caroline Goyder 0:59
So the simple way to talk about "Gravitas" is for the Romans, it was a virtue. It was something that a Roman man was expected to have of a certain class. And it means weight, seriousness, dignity. What does it mean to salesperson, it means grounded presence, it means that you are settled and centered in yourself. And it means that you are able to be truly present to others because they trust you.

Umar Hameed 1:27
So what's kind of interesting is, most people that we know are not there. And by that I mean that, mom comes home from a day at work. She's physically present, but mentally she's checked out the presentation or the mortgage or whatever. And even the dog, family dog can sense there's a disconnect. So that's the world we live in. And so how do we get body centered? Because that's where I mean, this is the temple we live in. And oftentimes, we're not in our body, we are elsewhere. So 30 seconds, go, how do we get back into our body?

Caroline Goyder 2:04
I mean, amen to that. And I have been all of those things and I know when I'm uncentered. The question is simply to notice where you're at. And if you're uncentered and getting through loads of stuff, that's okay. If you've got a big pitch, or a big sales meeting, or something important with your family, catch the state. Notice that you're in your head, there's lots of noisy thoughts, and just take a moment to come back to what your breathing is up to, self awareness of the breath. Notice what your knees are up to, and they look, notice what your feet are doing. They relaxed, I think, clenched,

Umar Hameed 2:40
My knees are always up to no good, but I agree. I think being fully present, so I often tell my clients that, you know, your mind will lie to you.

Caroline Goyder 2:50

Umar Hameed 2:50
The reason for it lying, there's a bunch of reasons. But one of them is there's just so much processing power, when you're with someone, it doesn't require all that attention. So you can think about the other million things which the other person can feel. But if you step into your body, and you fully present for someone that is literally an important gift you can give to another human being. Because

Caroline Goyder 3:12
Changes everything.

Umar Hameed 3:13
Yeah. And they notice it. Like one of the things I hear from a lot of people that finally quit is like, "Damn, you boss, I'm leaving," and then they do the exit interview. And one of the things you hear often is, "Oftentimes I'd be with my manager who were physically present, but she was checked out.

Caroline Goyder 3:29

Umar Hameed 3:30
I wasn't attended to I felt disconnected." And one of the things that's really interesting to me is, is that as you become more aware, you become aware when you're not connected.

Caroline Goyder 3:42

Umar Hameed 3:43
But sometimes it takes a spouse to go, "Hello". And so how, what tips would you give someone to be more mindful when they're not in their body? Like what would be a sign that they could use to just autocorrect [garbled] a while, they spend more time here in their body than they do in their thoughts?

Caroline Goyder 4:03
Do you know what the big towel for me was? Because I am the teacher who teaches what she needs. I teach something that I wasn't very good at when I started out. And the thing that people used to say to me that was the tell that I was busy in my head was have I said this before.

Umar Hameed 4:18
So that's what you would say?

Caroline Goyder 4:19
Well, that's what they would say to me. And and what that told me is it looked as if I switched off.

Umar Hameed 4:25

Caroline Goyder 4:26
Because they were picking up in my field that I wasn't fully engaged and and that happened a lot. And I it'll be a different phrase for your audience, something else might be happening. But if you notice that someone you're talking to, doesn't feel heard that they're getting twitchy or that you're losing engagement, start to notice what your impact is on that feedback loop.

Umar Hameed 4:49

Caroline Goyder 4:49

Umar Hameed 4:50
One of the things that drives me crazy on this technology, which is freaking amazing, because I'm here in Toronto, Canada, and you're in [Garbled], England. And we're having this conversation but the problem is this, is that we're hardwired to look at faces, and I want to do that. But if I look at your face, I'm not looking at the camera. So to you the illusion is, I'm not looking at you, but the warmth of our connection. And it takes a lot of willpower to look at the camera. And I'm doing this to honor you as a human being so you feel connected too, even though I feel a slight disconnection, thoughts on that?

Caroline Goyder 5:24
I just, I think there's no safe answer to that, I think I look at your face on screen. And if I've got something important to say I stare down the barrel of the camera, but mostly I'm looking at you.

Umar Hameed 5:37
Human need is like what we're drawn to. Have you ever heard of eye tracking glasses?

Caroline Goyder 5:43
They're coming out, they they're the future thing, I don't really know what they are.

Umar Hameed 6:24
So let's go back to sales and meetings and being present. So my theory is and yet, what do I know, that's why we have you here, is that when I step into my body, not just physically, but I know who I am, these are my fears, these are the things that turn me on, these are the things that interests me, and I truly have a sense of that. I can come to a meeting and be fully present, as opposed to when I'm like, "What do they want to hear? And how should I be? And should I be dressed in a suit? And should I do this? You're nodding your head. Do you agree with me? Are you just doing that?" I mean, all that nonsense gets in the way, but when I can attend to you, and it can breathe, and because I calm down, you can't help but kind of get centered as well, even though you're not doing any of those things, by me being present is contagious, right?

Caroline Goyder 7:14
Oh, yeah. State is contagious, for sure. And I love what you're saying about letting go of the baggage, the narrative that gets in the way of that connection. And what actors also say is that the question, "How can I help?" enhances that state of presence, because it takes us into this purpose state. We're very good as humans that serving and contributing is what we're wired to do. And if you go into that meeting, and you think, and you're centered and present, and all the good stuff we've talked about, and you're glowing with, "How can I help?" Why would they say no to you? You just it's what we want as humans, someone who is in service who is contributing?

Umar Hameed 8:04
Absolutely. And people listening to this right now, I'm gonna give you an example that might be a slight example to this, but it aligns perfectly. Caroline, have you ever gone to a restaurant where the hostess or host greets you and seats you on the table and they say beautiful things. And as they leave you and your significant other, you kind of go, "They didn't mean a single word of that," And then you go set a time and somebody comes in, and they say the exact same words and you feel like you've been welcomed into their home. So dear listeners, listening to this, when you go into that helpful thing, "I'm gonna glow helpfulness as a facade," don't do that really [garbled].

Caroline Goyder 8:42

Umar Hameed 8:42
"How can I serve this human being? And the best way I can serve them is to attend to them and listen to them. And oh, by the way, this is the solution we have for you is a great way to build connection and build your business."

Caroline Goyder 8:57
Absolutely. And the pain point that I hear so often from salespeople is that they're so nervous that the first thing they do is open their laptop and start the presentation. And that's the equivalent of the waiter throwing the menu at you, and starting to talk it through without finding out about you and finding out what you like and what's your favorite wine and have you been here before. And I think there's something about catching ourselves and just put the brakes on. Breathe, see them and ask the question, you know, ask the question that opens up what they want. And then we're not in a performance anymore, we're in service and that it's just give yourself a moment of pause before you rattle off with the presentation that you prepared. Because the presentation you prepared is not going to win you the pitch, you're gonna win the pitch. Your, your sense of service, your presence, your openness, your humanity, frankly.

Umar Hameed 9:55
Yeah. And you'd mentioned that you've got a daughter, how old's your daughter by the way?

Caroline Goyder 10:00
I have an 6 year old and an 11 year old.

Umar Hameed 10:03
So let's go with a six year old, you could stupidly one day, offer 27 things that she does not want. And she will let you know immediately. "Mom, I don't want any of those things," and if you asked her, "Sweetheart, what would you like?" And if you offer that she's gonna go, "Taa daa." And it's common sense when we're talking about our kids or other kids. But when we go into a sales meeting, finding out what's happening for the person you are attending in that meeting, what are their pain points? What are their concerns, what's getting in the way of them being fully functional and successful? Then we can say, "Oh, we got something that can help," rather than go out and like you said about the presentation, "My favorite slide and all presentations is, 'Hi, this is a picture of our building" "Really! Oh my God, I want to hire you immediately. That's such a gorgeous building."

Caroline Goyder 10:50
It's funny, isn't it? Because we know this is a deep level, we know that we don't like someone talking at us. But I think there's something so frightening about the concept of presenting that people need a crutch, and the deck the presentation becomes a crutch. But it's just the belief that you are enough, that you listening, being centered, being in service is much more valuable than that lovely, flashy deck with a nice picture of your building. It's, it's the belief, the mindset that says, "I am the person that can serve here, not this beautifully graphic design presentation.

Umar Hameed 11:29
Just got this brilliant, stup... actually stupid notion going in and then showing you a building, but it's actually Stonehenge, nevermind I'll show the Eiffel Tower. That was just append lies. And you know, I wonder we got to kind of warm up. So...

Caroline Goyder 11:45
You're really finding out if they're paying attention, don't you?

Umar Hameed 11:48
Absolutely. So one of the scary things is being ourselves for a lot of people. So any advice on like, I'll give you a good example. It's a, you can have someone that's, here's the story, I went to a wedding, you know, pre-COVID. And it was a Catholic wedding, 300 people in the church, me included, and the priest comes up to, he says, "By the way, I just graduated from seminary school, the priest that was supposed to be here, couldn't make it so I'm doing it. This is my first wedding.,I'm super nervous today."

Caroline Goyder 12:19
Oh, bless him.

Umar Hameed 12:20
And so of course, everybody in the audience fell in love with him. And he could have kept that hidden and he did...

Caroline Goyder 12:26

Umar Hameed 12:26
...he would have done a good job. And if no one would have noticed, but because he opened up and revealed what was going on for him, that was an extra special event for the bride, the groom and people in attendance. And all of a sudden we saw, "Wow, you did such an amazing job". So being transparent is not weakness,

Caroline Goyder 12:44

Umar Hameed 12:45
it's actually strength. And if you can do that with the right intention, and I think that's the word that's one of my favorite words is, intent. What is my intent in action, if this is my intent is to hoodwink someone into buying my stuff or, you know, push them into it, people can sense it, even though...

Caroline Goyder 13:05
Oh, yeah.

Umar Hameed 13:05
...I it might be kind and loving. But my intent is, I want to make sure that Caroline is heard, I want to make sure that I understand exactly what's going on. And if there's a solution to be had, I'm going to help her get it. If that is the intention, the other person can feel it. And if it's not, they may not know what it is, but they get a sensation that something's not right. And if someone gets, "This is not right," the answer is always no.

Caroline Goyder 13:31
We read it and where we read it is in gaze and invoice.

Umar Hameed 13:35

Caroline Goyder 13:36
Because when someone's very focused on their own self serving aims there, they get predator eyes, they get, they get a kind of tunnel vision. And when someone's in service, they tend to have more open peripheral vision, they're reading the room differently. Now our voice, if I'm in tunnel vision, predators eyes, my voice is tighter and flatter, it's almost fight or flight.

Umar Hameed 13:58

Caroline Goyder 13:59
If I'm in peripheral open vision, and a sense of service, my voice much more naturally modulates to the other person. Now you can teach people to do vocal rapport. But it ain't half as powerful as someone being in presence.

Umar Hameed 14:13
Yeah, absolutely. And you can actually be out and report if you're in presence and you're fully present,

Caroline Goyder 14:18

Umar Hameed 14:18
You know what will happen? What will happen is because the other person can sense it, they will join you not even realizing that they are actually mirroring you which is like a beautiful thing is. I have always believed, not always, but since an adult, that communications is 100% my responsibility. And if I happen to be talking to Caroline and she felt the same way, it'd be a magical conversation. If we think it's a 50-50 thing, then we got it wrong.

Caroline Goyder 14:47
Yes. Because we're always, we're always responsible for our own communication that we were and we're always like hosting a party, we're always responsible for how people feel around us and it's just taking that responsibility.

Umar Hameed 15:01
And I'll give you an example of that. If you came to my house when I was a bachelor, "Caroline, my house is your house." And my, when I got married, my wife said, "No, that is not Carolina's a guest. And it's our job to make her feel special, and go out of her way." And when I was really doing was being lazy, "Join a beer go to a fridge," and I thought that was being like welcoming. And she was like, "No, if somebody comes to your house, it's your job to make sure they cared for and loved. And if you don't do that, you're not doing it right." And then was like, "Oh, my God, I had fooled myself into thinking I was really being effective and connected when I was not." And I think that's what we need to do is when we go into a meeting, there's been times when, you know, people are going into negotiations that are really powerful, and sometimes with American Indian tribes, that they've trained some of the tribes people to just breathe.

Caroline Goyder 15:55

Umar Hameed 15:55
Everybody on this side of the table starts breathing in sync in harmony. And then before long, the other side does the same thing. And it kind of gels everybody together, even though the other sides, "We're going to win. And we're going to do this." And so you have a lot of power, if you've got the right intent.

Caroline Goyder 16:11
And I think when you add and awareness to breath, then you kind of get a little bit Ninja, because if you understand how breaths can slow down your heart rate, a long out breath is the simplest way to slow your heart rate and get you into good heart rate variability. When you're in good heart rate variability, you're in the parasympathetic nervous system, which is where we connect.

Umar Hameed 16:35
Absolutely. Do you know where... Sorry to interrupt you, we're about sake?

Caroline Goyder 16:40
It's this obvious thing you can do is slow your out breath. so the Indians were on to it big time.

Umar Hameed 16:44
So dear your listeners, you may not see this. Obviously, I'm shaking my head. Caroline, do you know where this comes from, this no symbol that we have?

Caroline Goyder 16:54
I do not. No, no.

Umar Hameed 16:56
It comes from babies, because babies can't control anything. But when their mothers were breastfeeding them, when they're full, they're like, "Nope, don't need the nipple."

Caroline Goyder 17:06
Oh, wow.

Umar Hameed 17:07
So the reason I mentioned that is, you know, you may have had the stupid notion that you control your children even when they were babies, and the answer is, "No, you do not."

Caroline Goyder 17:15
I don't think I had that notion.

Umar Hameed 17:19
When I'm working with clients, so one of the things I really teach them is the only thing in the entire world you can control is your breathing.

Caroline Goyder 17:27
Yes. Amen.

Umar Hameed 17:29
I mean, even though kids can stop breathing and turn blue, they don't do that anymore, they used to a long time ago to get, "I'm gonna hold my breath till you give me what I want," kind of thing. But when we're in panic mode, if we can just even hold your breath for a moment to say, "Okay, I control something". And just that one little millimeter of control gives you the opportunity to think, "I can get more control back and stop this panic attack." So breath is incredibly important, is vital to our survival. You can go without food for weeks, you can go without water for days, maybe a couple of weeks. But without breathing, baby, it's two to five minutes. And soon as I hold my breath, I want to take the next breath. So, Caroline, this has been a joy chatting with you and we need to go deeper. And by the way, I hate you because you've done a TED Talk, I've not. It's on my bucket list.

Caroline Goyder 18:18
Do your TED talk. Yeah.

Umar Hameed 18:20
I've applied many times but apparently they have standards, but I didn't know that.

Caroline Goyder 18:24
Be a coach. So for anybody listening who wants to do a TED talk, I was a speaker coach for a TED for Brixton TEDx. And I'd coached two years running and then they said, "Do you want to do a talk?" So as you know, well, in sales, it's all about the relationships.

Umar Hameed 18:39

Caroline Goyder 18:40
So volunteer. Volunteer.

Umar Hameed 18:43
Caroline, before we go, I've got two questions for you. Number one, what makes you happy?

Caroline Goyder 18:50
Love makes me happy. It also makes me unhappy. But the love of the people I care about really...

Umar Hameed 18:57

Caroline Goyder 18:57
...makes me happy.

Umar Hameed 18:58
Brilliant. And what's one tip, you could give our listeners, a mind hack that you use to become better, stronger, faster, sexier, whatever. What's the one thing you'd like to share?

Caroline Goyder 19:09
Emotion is just atoms moving around, right? Stress, you can tell yourself a story about it but it's just your atoms moving around in a specific way. If you can clock the movement of the atoms and give it a silly name.

Umar Hameed 19:25
I love it.

Caroline Goyder 19:26
Mr. Squishy, or whatever you feel like naming it. In the moment you name it, and you reframe it, and it moves on.

Umar Hameed 19:33
Just so you know Mr. Squishy sounds like a child predator but...

Caroline Goyder 19:37
Oh no, I've got a horror movie in my mind. Let's call it I don't know something else.

Umar Hameed 19:42
But it's a perfectly fine name. Thank you so much for being on the program really enjoyed it. And we should do this again because I think there's more ground to cover.

Caroline Goyder 19:50
Let's dig, we could dig into finding your voice as well because there's that's a very rich seam to explore for sales.

Umar Hameed 19:56
Love it.

Caroline Goyder 19:57
Perfect. Oh, and one thing to say before we go is that we've just I just finalized a new course called "Master Your Meetings" which is all about, I created it for salespeople.

Umar Hameed 20:06
Love it.

Caroline Goyder 20:06
And it takes people through mindset, it takes people through confidence, breath and body. It takes people through voice harnessing your voice speaking slowly pauses, pays, cutting fillers, and then it takes them into impact, which is balancing strength and warmth and really starting meeting strong. So if anybody would like it, just drop me an email and we'll send you a beta test, which is 10%.

Umar Hameed 20:27
And we're gonna put a link in the show notes all your social media stuff is linked to that program. So dear listener, go in the show notes. You'll find all the links there.

Caroline Goyder 20:36
Thank you so much.

Umar Hameed 20:38

Umar Hameed 20:43
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitsselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of Neuro-Linguistic Programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.


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