As the “Idea Whisperer,” Tamsen helps people find, build, and tell the stories of their ideas using their Red Thread®, the universal (but unique!) tie between how we see the world and what we do in it.
Tamsen’s own Red Thread weaves through her 20 years as a brand and message strategist, though she says she learned the most about inspiring change as a Weight Watchers leader.
As a TEDx Executive Producer, Tamsen coached experts, iconoclasts, and pioneers from around the world to build their Red Threads into Ideas Worth Spreading—and more than 9 million YouTube views.
Today, she’s a globe-hopping keynote speaker on storytelling, branding, change management, and idea development, and a go-to consultant for enterprise companies like Verizon, Johnson & Johnson, and State Street Bank who want to their big ideas to have an even bigger impact.
Tamsen lives in Boston with her other half/chief ballroom dancing partner, and two amazing boys with big ideas all their own.
Umar Hameed 0:06
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone. This is Umar Hameed, your host and welcome to the no limit selling Podcast, where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how to make you better, stronger, faster, get ready for another episode.
Umar Hameed 0:35
Hello everyone. Today I have the pleasure of having Tamsen Webster with me today and she is someone that can help you translate your English to English because way too often we think we know what we’re communicating, but the definition of communications is what people receive not what you send, Tamsen, welcome to the program.
Tamsen Webster 0:53
I’m delighted to be here, Umar, thanks so much for having me.
Umar Hameed 0:55
This is gonna be such a fun journey, because I’m going to bare my soul in terms of a new project, what I’m trying to communicate, and then you’re going to help me figure out how to articulate it in a way that helps people understand it. But before we go there, I want everyone to know that I hate you. And I’ll tell you why.
Tamsen Webster 1:10
My gosh! That’s a heck of a way to start Umar. All right, but tell me more.
Umar Hameed 1:15
If you’ve not been to her website, you have to go and the title there is “Make your ideas Irresistible”, but the site is gorgeous.
Tamsen Webster 1:23
No, thank you. Well, that is that is the beautiful implementation of my my brand by a wonderful designer named Michelle Martello of minimadesigns.com
Umar Hameed 1:35
Way to go Michelle.
Tamsen Webster 1:36
Yeah, she’s great.
Umar Hameed 1:37
So I am here to be disrated, helped, elevated. So where do we start?
Tamsen Webster 1:43
Well, I think let’s start from understanding what it is it I mean, I you already articulated what it is that a lot of people get wrong. I mean, most people who have, you know, and like your audience, big ideas, they’ve built businesses around it. They’re entrepreneurs, founders, you know, you’ve you’ve done all this and created these businesses, typically, because you have a vague idea. And even if you don’t necessarily think of it as a big idea, it is definitely your answer, a new answer a different answer to some kind of question that’s out there in the world.
Umar Hameed 2:12
Tamsen Webster 2:12
Tamsen Webster 2:13
Umar Hameed 2:14
Oh no! please.
Tamsen Webster 2:15
Yeah, I think what I what I find is that you’re what happens is we get we know that idea backwards and forwards. And we’re so in love with that idea. That a sometimes we forget to even link it to the problem that it solves.
Umar Hameed 2:29
Tamsen Webster 2:30
But I mean, you really summarized it beautifully. And a lot of times what we want to say about our idea is and what people need to hear about it, at least not at first. And so that really is the problem I try to solve with the folks that I work with.
Umar Hameed 2:41
There was this old silly movie called The Hudsucker Proxy. And the whole idea is they want this company to fail. So they find this guy who’s got the dumbest idea to run the company. And all he does is on a napkin, draw a little circle, this is what I want to do. And they’re like, “Okay, you got the job.” And what he was actually describing, badly was the hula hoop. And of course, instead of bankrupting the company, it becomes like the number one toy in the world. And but it’s a clear example of us not communicating clearly. So let me tell you my new project. And let’s go through that process so we can highlight for the listeners how to do this.
Tamsen Webster 3:15
Umar Hameed 3:15
So the name of the new project is called Mindset Boosters. I have been helping people break through their limitations for the last 20 some odd years.
Tamsen Webster 3:25
Umar Hameed 3:25
…people come in, and I figure out Oh, this belief in your unconscious is stopping you from executing a good example would be a CEO that takes longer to make decisions than they should. Sometimes you discovered that one part of their psyche knows exactly what to do. But another part at the unconscious level has a need to be liked.
Umar Hameed 3:42
Umar Hameed 3:42
So they hold off making the tough decisions. And I would uncover that within the first hour and transform the belief and all of a sudden, they’d get this big breakthrough. But clients started asking me between sessions, is there something I can do to help me stay in the zone. So I started making audio programs with applied neuroscience embedded within to let them show up in a more powerful way, it was very customized. And so this year, I decided, I want to democratize that if we could have give people the ability on their phone or on their computer to get the help they need when they need it, that that would help them become awesomer. And it would allow them to take their ideas and make them real and be more successful, more loving, more peace of mind. So if you’ve got an issue, we’ve got a Mindset Booster for you.
Tamsen Webster 4:27
All right. So if someone asks you that question, what is your idea? Is that that usually what you tell them that several minute explanation?
Umar Hameed 4:37
so generally, if somebody said, What are Mindset Boosters, what I would say is Mindset Boosters are audio programs that show you how to take charge your mindset. So if you want more confidence is going to show you a three step process to amp up your competence from a six out of 10 to a 10 out of 10. So not only do you get the transformation, but you learn how to do it.
Tamsen Webster 4:54
Okay, great! I mean, you’ve got a lot of good stuff to start and I think…
Umar Hameed 4:58
Tamsen Webster 4:58
…that’s it. That’s a that’s important. I mean, and, you know, to kind of build on what we were talking about before about what you want to say versus what people need to hear. I think it’s important to understand, I know you’re a big fan of the brain and how it works. This what lies between question and answer a problem and solution, right? And, and what lies between those two things in everybody’s mind is story.
Tamsen Webster 5:05
Tamsen Webster 5:14
Like our brains create stories, not necessarily once upon a time story, but we create stories to rationalize why a particular answer, or a particular solution is the right one, either in general, or for us for a particular problem.
Umar Hameed 5:38
Also, when my girlfriend doesn’t call me back, I started making stories.
Tamsen Webster 5:42
Of course, right!
Umar Hameed 5:43
Yes, it happened, that happened..
Tamsen Webster 5:45
It’s competely , yeah, it’s a completely normal, and common and in fact, universal. And it is the most common thing that is missing from a message is actually the story. And I don’t again, don’t mean a once upon a time story, I mean, an acceptable explanation to an expert audience of why your solution is the right one. So what I hear and I hear this a lot, and it makes sense, based on your point of view. The kinds of answers to that question, what is the idea that you gave me, which is, well, let me tell you what it is and why it’s awesome. And all of that is true, I am sure. But what we don’t hear other than the why it’s awesome is why is that the right answer? Why is you know, an audio process the right answer? Or why is to some of the other things, you say? Why is transforming the belief, the answer? Why is mindset the answer? Because if I don’t hear something like that, if I don’t hear a story, that I would naturally tell myself as a potential client of yours, then I’m not gonna keep paying attention. And that’s what we really need to start working on, like for your message or for any message, because that’s really what I’m trying to do everytime I’m working with a client, we’re building the story that your potential clients will tell themselves about your idea, not the case you would make for it. And don’t worry, all your stuff will get there. But we’re gonna try to build
Umar Hameed 7:14
Really is a process.
Tamsen Webster 7:15
Umar Hameed 7:15
So can I tell you a client story with that help?
Tamsen Webster 7:18
Umar Hameed 7:19
Not only do we have mindset boosters in a bunch of categories, but we also do customized mindset boosters for specific problems. So this woman called up and said, My daughter started getting anxiety attacks. Can you help her? We figured out what is a feeling you have where you felt unstoppable, nothing would get in your way. And when she had scored the winning point in lacrosse, and the whole university was counting on her. So I created a customized booster for her to basically snap her out of anxiety and access that feeling she had when she won that goal. And it’s a process with a couple other steps in it that takes about seven minutes to do. She calls me back. But two days later saying I was getting on the university bus, it was super overcrowded, I started getting an anxiety attack. I had the phone in my hand and my air pods in I hit go. And within two minutes, I felt okay. And by seven minutes, I felt really fantastic. normally take me out of the loop for like a day of anxiety. And it just took two minutes.
Tamsen Webster 8:14
Yeah, yes. Well, that’s fabulous. I mean, again, I love hearing that benefit. And there’s gonna be plenty of people who are like, well, that story sounds like something I mind. So let…
Umar Hameed 8:24
Tamsen Webster 8:24
…me find out more. But I think there’s a there’s always a more efficient way to get there. And I think that’s that’s what’s useful, because you get those folks who maybe are kind of on the edge of being particular clients for yours, or the way that their brains work is actually they’re not able to take somebody else’s story and map it to their own. So let’s say,,,
Umar Hameed 8:33
Tamsen Webster 8:38
…for instance, I don’t have anxiety, I am a leader who has some other kind of, you know, let’s say it’s imposter syndrome or something like that. I’m going to guess you could help with that. But if I don’t, if I don’t identify with, you know, the story of a young woman struggling with anxiety, I’m like, well, that’s great. But I’m not like that person.
Umar Hameed 9:04
Tamsen Webster 9:04
So, you know, before we really start to dig into the message itself, it’s kind of important to understand that, you know, there are really three beliefs about an idea or really about anything that somebody needs to have before they will agree to it. And again, it is this agreement that and is they’re not even gonna agree with you, they have to kind of agree with themselves…
Umar Hameed 9:24
Tamsen Webster 9:24
…and the first is that it’s possible, right? So I can, you know, in the example of your story, okay, well, I you know, I believe that based on what you’ve just told me that that what you say is possible. No, no, not not. Maybe not everybody would. And this is why it’s important to kind of build a story that people would tell themselves about your idea. Because not everyone’s gonna take your word for it.
Umar Hameed 9:46
Tamsen Webster 9:47
…even if they do believe it’s possible they need to be believe it’s possible for them the thing that…
Umar Hameed 9:52
Tamsen Webster 9:52
…talked about, so again, that comes up to what I was talking about if Okay, that’s great. This worked for anxiety, I’m playing the role of a skeptic here, Mr. Dolan, which I not necessarily I am not necessarily when it comes to your stuff. But if I’m that leader who struggles with imposter syndrome, I’m like, Well, I don’t know, I don’t have any reason why I would believe that that would work for me. Okay.
Umar Hameed 9:53
Tamsen Webster 10:14
And then the third piece is that it’s worth it. And that really has kind of two components, which ideally, you’re using both, but one or the other will also do, and the worth it is either that the payoff, right, is worth it right, that the potential benefits, you know, so you were talking about people could, you know, take their ideas, make them real, make them more successful, you know, those are some of the things that you said, That’s definitely us trying to speak to that worth it piece. And right, the second piece, the second lever is that the what I like to call the barrier to trial is so low, right?
Umar Hameed 10:55
Tamsen Webster 10:55
…someone, you that’s another way to go, you can say, well, maybe I don’t believe it’s possible possible for me, but you’re giving me an easy way to do this. So I might as well try, since it’s close enough,
Umar Hameed 11:05
Tamsen Webster 11:06
But all of that is solved by making sure that you give somebody a quick powerful case for the idea out of the gate, that then all those great stories that you have, and all those great explanations and those benefits that you have Umar can then fit into that.
Umar Hameed 11:21
Brilliant! so I must pause right there just for a second and kind of go more on kind of my area of expertise, and then come back to what you’re doing. Sure, is the opposite of what you just spoke about, is when people are in a really bad place. It’s either they feel helpless, hopeless, or worthless.
Tamsen Webster 11:38
Mm hmm. Yep.
Umar Hameed 11:39
And helpless, like it’s not possible,
Tamsen Webster 11:41
Umar Hameed 11:41
Hopeless it’s possible for me.
Tamsen Webster 11:45
Umar Hameed 11:45
Yeah! Worthless, of course, the worst that that you mentioned over here. And so it’s kind of interesting how it’s the same idea, the same coin with two sides. So it just kind of adds to what you’re saying. So it’s totally brilliant, so what’s the next step in figuring this out?
Tamsen Webster 11:59
Okay, so the very first step in figuring all this out, and the way that I that I found to be the most efficient way to kind of to find your core message or your core case that someone would tell themselves about your product or service is to articulate the question that your audience is already asking that your idea answers. So it can be something that’s fairly as I like to say, like far away from, you know, awareness of the problem, as you see it, Umar and the solution as you see it. So it could deck an example of a question like that would be how could I be more successful? meeting that person doesn’t yet understand the role of mindset in that, and they don’t understand the role of some kind of audio quick audio delivery of that mindset. But they’re just asking, “How can I be more successful?’ You believe you can help someone asking that question. But it means the the the way that you explain it’s going to be very different to somebody who isn’t already kind of down the field, as I like to say, towards that answer.
Umar Hameed 12:56
Let me ask you a question. There are a lot of people that are frustrated, because not how they could be more successful, they’re frustrated that why am I not more successful? Like there’s something getting in the way of me? And so one is like, the negative articulation of what you just said, but sometimes I really feel that it’s like, “Why don’t they hire me? I’m really good at this.” Why isn’t this happening as if there’s a mysterious, unseen force that’s stopping them? And it could be called mindset? Maybe not, but..
Tamsen Webster 13:21
That’s right. And that’s what you’ve done there. Umar is exactly what I encourage my clients to do, which is frame it in the words that your audience is asking right now. And sometimes that’s useful, just to think of like, if they were to Google it, or if they were to say it to a friend. And that’s important is it needs to be something that would say out loud to somebody else. How are they saying it right now? Because what they’re not looking for, necessarily is, you know, what I’m you know, where can I find a, you know, eight to 10 minute audio piece that’s going to help me change my mindset for the day? Like, they’re not necessarily answering that question, right? They’re not asking,
Umar Hameed 13:54
Absolutely! and they may not even be asking, How do I get a better mindset may not be something that Google sees a lot or ever.
Tamsen Webster 14:00
Right, exactly. And so I mean, maybe people who are familiar with you, right? Because you you talked about an example where one of your current clients knew you already did this work and then said, Hey, can you do this for somebody else? You could create a whole message around that, but that’s going to be while it’s going to be a much higher conversion message. There’s going to be far far fewer people who would listen to it. So I use um, depending on people’s preferences, you know, I use a an analogy to explain this. So given the choice between a baseball football or travel metaphor, what would be most useful to you are?
Umar Hameed 14:38
Baseball, football or travel, travel?
Tamsen Webster 14:41
Let me say American football. Okay, travel. All right. So where you’re in, you’re in Baltimore. Is that correct?
Umar Hameed 14:46
Yes. It’s the center of the world.
Tamsen Webster 14:49
Yeah. And are you actually in Baltimore? Are you in kind of like outside of Baltimore?
Umar Hameed 14:53
I am in Baltimore City, just on the edge near the counties,
Tamsen Webster 14:57
Okay. So I want you to think of Baltimore as when somebody is in Baltimore and like with you at your house, right like that metaphorically that they are completely signed up on board with Umar approach to success, life mindset, and what are you know that if you’ve gotten them to your house, then then they are successful, you are successful, right?
Umar Hameed 15:20
Tamsen Webster 15:20
Let’s think of it that way. And we’re gonna just say that that’s Baltimore. Now, some people are going to be like, Sue, name for me some other neighborhood in Baltimore, that’s not very far away, but it’s still not right where…
Umar Hameed 15:31
Tamsen Webster 15:31
…you live. What’s that? Columbia?
Umar Hameed 15:33
Tamsen Webster 15:33
Yeah. Okay. So somebody like your client, who was saying, is there a way that I can apply your mindset boosting in this situation? That’s somebody who’s in Colombia? That’s a Columbia question, or to map it to other people who are like, why didn’t he pick baseball or football? I would say in football, that would be an redzone question, somebody really, really close to touchdowns, right? Or in baseball? That’s a third base question. You’re really close to home. But right now, that’s a Columbia question. Now, let’s say somebody, though, is in, in Annapolis, right? They’re not terribly far from Baltimore. But it’s not something where, you know, if they’re in Columbia, probably somebody, maybe it’s a short walk, maybe it’s a long walk, or whatever, but they could probably walk there, right, or, you know, public transportation, and Annapolis, they’re going to have to get in a car, there’s going to be some things that have to happen. And that’s kind of your midway, right? And so that would be somebody who is aware of the nature of the problem that you see it, but they’re not really aware of your solution. So that would be somebody who’s asking questions like, what am I doing, that’s getting in the way of my success? So it’s different from that question where you said, Why am I not more successful, that person already understands, and, and understands that they have a role in that success? Okay, so that let’s call that the Annapolis question, that would be a second base question or a midfield question. in football, that’s somebody who is aware of the problem, you know, are somewhat aware of the problem as you see it, but not therefore aware of the solution. And then, let’s put this person like up in Boston, where I am the kind of far away person where like they’re within striking distance by plane of Baltimore. But it’s a different, it’s a totally different journey to get to your house. Particularly since I’m starting a lot further away. I’m starting with a question like, why am I not successful? So one of the first things to do with any of this is to look with your messages, because again, what we need to create is a question and an answer. And the story between those two is to anchor on that question. So of the three that we’ve just kind of brainstormed, like, Does any of them feel like Yep, these are the people that I want to talk to that why am I not successful? What What am I doing that’s getting in the way of my success? I’d say that’s your kind of Midway question. And then your Columbia question is, what are specific things I can do with my mindset to bring me closer to my to success?
Umar Hameed 17:59
Right. So the question once again is?
Tamsen Webster 18:02
Which one of those three is the one that that resonates most closely for you right now as saying, those are the people that I want to reach? I know you can reach all of them. This is part of the challenge of messaging is that you actually have to choose one in order to get clarity when we try to speak to them the three of those people simultaneous…
Umar Hameed 18:18
Speak no one yeah!
Tamsen Webster 18:19
…none of them work. So which one? Again? I’ll repeat the basic one, why am I not successful? That’s our Boston 99 yards away first base question, two, what am I doing that’s getting in the way of my success? Okay, so that person is kind of aware of there’s a problem that’s kind of associated with how you see it, that’s the that’s the Annapolis second base, midfield question. Third base question, what can I do to change my mindset so that it’s more in tune towards more of a successful one for me, right. Again, the language is not right. But that’s where they’re actually they’ve actually figured out that it’s mindset. And they want help there.
Umar Hameed 19:00
The target that I’m going after. And I’ll as your questions after I can articulate this our salespeople, this is kind of designed for salespeople because salespeople can monetize this.
Tamsen Webster 19:11
Umar Hameed 19:11
And I think the people I’m looking for are people that are in Boston,
Tamsen Webster 19:15
Umar Hameed 19:15
Why I am not?
Tamsen Webster 19:16
Why am I successful? Yep
Umar Hameed 19:18
Yeah, why am I closed? closing more accounts? Tamsen’s like closing more accounts. I’m, I’m taller. I’m better-looking. I know the subject matter better, but she’s doing better than me and…
Tamsen Webster 19:26
What happen yeah?
Umar Hameed 19:26
Tamsen Webster 19:27
Umar Hameed 19:27
Why not? Me what’s getting in the way?
Tamsen Webster 19:29
All right. So this establishes the first piece of this story that connects question and answer and I call that story that we’re building the red thread. It’s based on the idiom from Northern European it’s, it’s kind of a logical progression of ideas. And that story starts as any great story starts the minute we know what somebody wants. So when you’re able to do that for your own idea, business or whatever, and again, the fastest way to do that is frame it as a question. You’ve now you’ve got the starting point of that story, the what we’re gonna call The goal and it’s the audience’s goal, not yours. And so in this case, it’s why am I not more successful? So great Umar we’ve got piece one. Now the second piece that we’re looking for, like in any great story, because again, it’s a story is not to find out immediately, what is the answer to that question? It is, because as much as we’re tempted to just say, Well, why are you not some more successful? Well, because there’s a problem with your mindset. And so you need to do this. People don’t like to hear that they’re wrong. And and salespeople are particular, based on my experience with them really don’t like to hear that they’re wrong. Because no human does we, you know, you know, us with the work that you’ve done, like we, we, you know, the way I like to frame it is that all humans that are, you know, overriding wants and belief is to be seen as smart, capable and good. And so you when you’re developing your message needs to adopt that mindset and your frame of mind around your clients and customers to these are smart, capable, good sales people. It’s why they’re asking that.
Umar Hameed 21:05
Typically, I use a phrase and just all my other marketing, I just, I’m trying to make this a real word. It isn’t quite a real world word yet. But awesomer, I can help you become awesomer no, presume so you’re already awesome.
Tamsen Webster 21:17
It does. And it speaks to people who already think that they’re awesome, right? Much like with, you know, messaging on my own site that you talked about, you know, it’s that choice of language for me to make your ideas irresistible is very specific, because I want people who perceive there to be a gap between where their idea is and where they want it to be. I remember one time I worked with a marketing consultant. And they’re like, well, I put this in front of people. And some of the people said, Well, I don’t need my idea to ever be irresistible. And I was like, exactly, those are not my client.
Umar Hameed 21:50
Tamsen Webster 21:51
So this is why this kind of question is so important. So we’ve got that. The second thing we want to introduce now is to say, Okay, these are smart, capable of good people who are asked, trying to answer this question for themselves in a way that they would agree with, without having to be convinced, why aren’t they getting that answer? Why aren’t they able to answer that question for themselves right now. So this is the second thing that we’re trying to introduce. Because if we’re following story structure, which is what we are, because that’s actually what our brain is doing, we are literally building a story. And those elements are predictable and known. The second element is a problem that we didn’t know we had. And this for folks that know psychology and neuroscience, this is basically what we’re doing here is we’re creating a reframing set, we’re creating a set. And I believe you actually gave me the hint of it earlier, when you were giving me your original answer. And that is you created what I call a problem pair, you created two different perspectives, one common one uncommon, that kind of explain what’s getting in the way, and you said, there’s the conscious things, and then there’s the unconscious things. So I’m curious. So if you were to say, why am I not more successful? You know, obviously, with, you know, if we were doing this as a client conversation, this take a lot longer. But when we’re kind of let’s just assume for now that this problem pair of conscious unconscious works, explained to me if you’re going to say, yeah, you know, when I’ve talked to salespeople, like you, I get this question a lot, you know, why am I not more successful? And what I find is that when people go looking for that answer, they often focus on now use that conscious piece. And then contrast that with the unconscious piece. Just kind of talk to me using those words.
Umar Hameed 23:38
Traditionally, in sales, when you’re not getting the results you want. You get more sales training, or you get a sales coach, and they tell you what to do. And oftentimes, we don’t do what we’re advised to do in the way that we were advised, we might ask for the sale, but we asked them to, “Tamsen, would you like to get my app?” “Hmm.” Instead of, “Tamsen, this is really going to help you out.” So what happens is, there’s a disconnect, we think willpower is going to help us And oftentimes, it doesn’t help us as much. The other thing is, there’s been so much talk around mindset that it’s almost a cliche, because we talk around it, but there aren’t any specific do this three step process and notice this change. So I think what’s happening is that they consciously know that there’s a, that there is a problem that could be doing better, but consciously can’t figure out why that’s happening. Because I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing something is getting in the way, and they are at odds to figure out what that is. And usually what’s getting in the way is themselves.
Tamsen Webster 24:32
Umar Hameed 24:32
And so what we need them to do is take a peek underneath the hood and go, Oh, this belief about my mother told me that you never talk about money in polite company, and all of a sudden those money questions become difficult to do.
Tamsen Webster 24:47
Right? So tell me a little bit more like when you were first introducing this idea to me when you’re first explaining it, you use you use that pair of conscious and unconscious. So tell me how you define those just briefly. How do you define those two? And why are they at odds with each other
Umar Hameed 25:03
Conscious is you know what you want. And you say, I want to go get this.
Tamsen Webster 25:08
Umar Hameed 25:08
Unconscious is when you’re going to go get it, you don’t give it a 100% effort, and you can’t figure out why you’re not stepping on the gas going there. So something in the unconscious is getting in the way, either a limiting belief or a limiting set of thoughts. A lot of people have this negative voice inside their head that when they go to do something, that voice comes up, and it tells them this level work.They’ve been…
Tamsen Webster 25:29
What is it now that voice that is so powerful?
Umar Hameed 25:31
Because it knows where our vulnerabilities are, and where the skeletons inside our psyche, are, and it knows that when you were in grade seven, you were not picked for the team. In fact, the kids made fun of you, because you sucks and that voice when you’re an adult now, and none of that is true, and you go to go do something new, it says you suck, they’re gonna figure out you don’t know what you’re talking about. And then all of a sudden, that is so powerful, not from what the boy said. But from that past wound that all of a sudden has got an energy that stops you dead in your tracks, even though the thing you want most in the world is to achieve, you’ve got the skill set to do it, you just need to do what you did on a $10 million account on $100 million account, but somehow screwed things up. Because that unconscious stuff gets in the way it sabotages your efforts.
Tamsen Webster 26:13
Super. Cool. So. So with this second piece, so we’ve got the goal, which is the audience question that places them like in there, like how close to readiness, are they and we’ve got for that, that for you is why am I not more successful. And then we’re what we’re always looking for is the second piece of the story in people’s head is what I’m going to call this problem pair. It’s really a problem of perspective. And the trick is, though, we can’t really make it, we can’t make them wrong for having this problem. We just need to describe it in such a way that they would acknowledge that it’s true. And you did a beautiful job of that. I mean, it’s one of those things to tighten it up a little bit. You said, Well, you know, when we’re trying to figure out how to be more successful, there’s the things that you know, you want and you know, you can do and you’re said I’m gonna go do it. And then something happens, right, where it’s not 100%. And you don’t know why. So that means there’s things that we don’t know about, right, that are getting in the way, I call this conscious and unconscious. Right? So that’s kind of a quick way of just getting it to say, Hey, would you agree that this flow happened so that you can get them to go? Would you agree these two things are present, and these two things are intention.
Umar Hameed 27:22
So I’m just gonna pause you right there, because, dear listeners, you can’t watch this. But as Tamsen is describing this, she’s holding her thumb and pinky together on one hand as conscious, and then the other hand, the same gesture is unconscious. And if it was a face to face meeting, just that two things together, showing that one gesture of conscious and unconscious would be so powerful for the other person to get that our body language and communications is so powerful. So bravo for you for doing that. And I’m going to use that.
Tamsen Webster 27:52
Excellent. Because we need conch…, we need contrast to see. So you know, when if I’m explaining kind of deeply why each of these pieces besides, you know, if you take it on faith, that these are the kind of common elements of both actual stories and our brain stories of gold problem and I’ll tell you, the other three are truth-change-action. There’s specific reasons and specific things they do, particularly in sales that make them like they make these your conversations that are based on them extra compelling.
Umar Hameed 28:18
Tamsen Webster 28:19
The first is by framing this as a question, you’re invoking people’s curiosity. And curiosity is one of the most most reliable forces of intrinsic motivation that’s out there. If you create a gap between something that somebody knows and something they want to know, they really have a hard time not closing it on themselves.
Umar Hameed 28:37
Tamsen Webster 28:37
Yeah, go ahead.
Umar Hameed 28:38
Quite literally, when you ask a really good question, you change that person’s brain chemistry.
Tamsen Webster 28:42
Yes. Right. Because it’s like…
Umar Hameed 28:44
Because it’s like magical.
Tamsen Webster 28:45
Yeah, it’s always…
Umar Hameed 28:46
It’s like a Merlin of you know, King Arthur land that you could change that is phenomenal. So a great question is really important. Please go on.
Tamsen Webster 28:53
Yeah. And the second piece of this problem piece, what’s introducing is contrast. And the reason why the contrast is so important, if you don’t make it really crystal clear to people, the difference between their current situation and and another way to look at it, and I’m very clear here, we’re not talking about what they’re doing. That’s kind of getting in the way, it’s how they’re seeing the world that’s getting in the way the lens they’re using the frame they’re putting on it.
Umar Hameed 29:18
Also totally brilliant, like one of the best ads ever in the history of humanity is this is a picture of fat Umar. And this is a picture of skinny Umar and our dietary thing did it like that contrast and brain science, we look for contrast, and I never thought of it this way in messaging, but yeah, creating that contrast that people can get the “Oh, I get what you’re talking about.”
Tamsen Webster 29:38
Right! Because we and I usually see if I see mistakes here. It’s usually or challenges here, things that are getting in the way it’s usually because either we spend all our time painting that future picture, and which point people don’t really understand why it’s so much better. They’re like I hear you, but like really, is it all that different? Or we spend a lot of time painting like a really dour picture. What’s wrong right now? But you actually have to kind of put them next to each other so that they can people can see them. All right. And again, this can be language by wise. But you see what I was what I was doing with the conscious to unconscious was just saying,,,
Umar Hameed 30:14
Tamsen Webster 30:14
…there’s this one thing. Would you agree that that’s true that there’s certain things that you know about in the you know are going on? And would you then also agree that on the flip side of those things is this kind of other thing, the other side of this coin is what’s happening that you don’t know about. So once we’re there, we’re in a really cool, great position to introduce kind of the most important part of the story of all.
Umar Hameed 30:34
And just kind of add to what you’re doing, which is like freaking brilliant is having that contrast also shows that person, a progression of you can go from here to here, it makes it possible, because in order to see that negative side, they have to create a model of it inside their mind. And once you create the future, they create another model, and then the rest of your story connects the two and makes it possible for them. So it goes back to that original three-prong thing you were talking about…
Tamsen Webster 30:59
Umar Hameed 30:59
…you’re doing in the story, so brilliant.
Tamsen Webster 31:01
Absolutely! Yeah! And it’s a so it’s, that’s exactly right. I mean, and what we’re ultimately we’re trying to do with that contrast is basically to create a world for them where those two are united.
Umar Hameed 31:14
Tamsen Webster 31:14
So once we’ve got that curiosity and votes with that goal, we’ve got contrast invoked with that problem pair with that two part problem, then the next important piece is really one of the most important pieces of any story. And that is that lots of words for climax, the midpoint moment of truth, which is the one that I’m going to anchor on. There’s no fancy word for it as an ignore assists. It’s the moment in a story where people recognize the true nature of things. But it’s really that moment where there’s there’s a there is that realization, that creates..
Umar Hameed 31:23
Tamsen Webster 31:39
it’s, it’s the Epiphany, and it’s kind of it’s that thing that happens right before it’s the the inhale of breath right before the and this is what I’m going to do. And we must create that in our audiences in order for them to act on their own and a way for them to do this. And so what we’re looking for next in our goal problem, right, we’ve got a question, we’ve got that two part. So why am I not more successful, we’ve got conscious unconscious, the next thing we’re looking for is a statement of truth. Right? We’re looking for a description of the true nature of circumstances that again, notice there’s a theme here, that the person you’re talking to, would agree with.
Umar Hameed 32:32
So here is the statement that I’ve used in the past. And I love the statement, and I kind of stole this from an Apple commercial, because it resonated that Tamsen know with certainty, like already, I think are amazing and awesome. But I know with certainty that there’s a better you inside you is a better version of us inside all of us.
Tamsen Webster 32:49
So and I think so I think that’s solid, except for if you’re putting yourself in the person’s shoes, right? That what we’re what we’re looking for here is a statement that’s difficult, if not impossible, for some time for someone to argue with. And so while I think there’s a hint at the actual truth, and what you just said, if we go back to what you were saying the three things that get in the way of people is that hopeless, helpless or worthless. If you say to someone, there’s a better you inside you, there’s gonna be some people that don’t agree with you.
Umar Hameed 33:21
That resist, Yeah?
Tamsen Webster 33:22
That resist and what we’re looking for in this statement, something where people go, that’s true. Now, you actually said something that I wrote down is that and you said, your inner voice knows your vulnerabilities…
Umar Hameed 33:34
Tamsen Webster 33:35
…the voice inside, you know, is your vulnerability, your vulnerabilities? And I’m going to suggest that most people would agree with that.
Umar Hameed 33:43
Tamsen Webster 33:43
That that, you know, so there’s you did this beautifully. You said, so we, you know, there’s something else going on? And you explained a little bit about what that is. And then you said that voice knows your vulnerabilities. And it’s in that moment, where if I’m trying to figure out how to be more successful. And I still want that it’s one reason why we anchor in that because someone’s not going to unwind something that they want. Second, if I agree that I’ve been focused more on the things that I know, consciously than the things that I don’t know, unconsciously, and if I agree with you, and this belief that the that unconscious voice is the one that knows my vulnerabilities, do you see how that creates an immediate tension, or now…
Umar Hameed 34:25
Tamsen Webster 34:25
…I have to choose because I have to give up something, you have to like because you’ve created a three-way tension that can’t stand meeting, somebody there has to give up something they want, they have to unwant, figuring out why they’re not successful. They have to unbelief, something along the lines of it’s that inner voice that’s kind of speaks your vulnerability. Right. And that’s hard. I think for most people do. They may not say it out loud to you. They may not be like, “Yeah, Umar you right,” but that like there’s a part or they have to give up. focusing only on on what they know is the problem, which again, doesn’t solve their problem because you’ve already opened that other door with the unconscious piece. So what we’re trying to do whenever you’re crafting a message, and particularly what you’re trying to do in that problem pair is kind of crack a door that they don’t even know you’re opening at the time. So that because they’re not going to unwind, and they’re not going to unbelief. So I would set that up for you something along those lines of, you know, so hey, when I talk with salespeople, like you, they often want to know, why am I not more successful? And if you think about this, a lot of times when you’re trying to figure that out, you go after the things that you know, you want, and you go after go at that, you know, with the kind of conscious decision to do those things. And at the same time, you’re not always doing it 100% and you don’t know why. So there’s clearly both the conscious things going on and unconscious things going on I Umar taking you over Umar refer to that is your unconscious voice. And here’s the thing, that unconscious voice speaks your vulnerabilities. Now that means All right, now here’s we start to move to the next and kind of the satisfying piece because I’ve we’ve introduced that conflict, now we have to resolve it. And so that’s where you can say to a particular person. So that’s what I help you do. I help you make the unknown known. So you can act on it as confidently as you do all the stuff that you do consciously now, right or something along those lines. How do I do that? Well, then you go into now, then you pick up on your mindset booster piece, because now you’ve gotten them to a point where they’re like, “Oh, you’ve moved them from…
Umar Hameed 36:33
You’ve moved them from yeah.
Tamsen Webster 36:35
Yeah, you’ve moved them from Boston to Annapolis. And now they’re actually like, Okay, I’m in range, tell me more. You see how that works?
Umar Hameed 36:43
Yeah, absolutely. Totally brilliant. And dear listeners. So I said that phrase about the, you know, the voice inside your head. And it’s true, but I missed the importance of it. And that’s why you need to work with Tamsen because she’s going to be able to help you feel relaxed enough to articulate but smart enough to kind of go, that’s a catchphrase, we need to make sure we capture that. And because sometimes you can’t solve those kinds of problems yourself, you need someone that’s got the skill set to kind of hear what’s there and what’s important, and help you put it together in a way that you kind of go, I should have known that I could have had a VA.
Tamsen Webster 37:16
Right, I should have had a VA. So I think I mean, I think you’ve got some interesting options, like one is to say, so you need make the unknown known. But the other thing you could do that would get them to your mindset boosters a little bit faster is like so that’s what I do, I give you another voice to listen to one that doesn’t speak your vulnerabilities it speaks to it speaks your strengths. Right. And so that could be another thing that you could kind of work through with that there, it gets them a little bit closer to specifically the product that you’re talking about. And that by the way, that piece, that high level description of what of what you do may either make the unknown known or let me give you another voice to listen to, is what I call the change. And that’s really that fourth piece of that red thread. And that’s the answer, right? How do I, why am I not more successful? Because you know, negatively framed, you’re listening to the voice that speaks your vulnerabilities, right? So the best way to become more expressive successful is listen to the voice that speaks your strengths. Right?
Umar Hameed 38:15
Tamsen Webster 38:16
In the beginning, that will be me, but this will teach you how to build it to yourself so that you start to listen to that voice and not the other one.
Umar Hameed 38:22
Tamsen, you are a genius. That was really good session today. And thank you for doing that. Because I think it gives people a real clear idea of how do you get clarity in your messaging because all too often we think we’re clear, and we’re not clear enough. And we think down a certain path of thinking that we do not get out of and the people that are in our companies that thinking the same way. So you need somebody coming in, that doesn’t have a dog in the fight that wants the best for you that can actually hear what you’re doing and saying “Yes, but tell me more.” Why this and tell me more about that and to capture those phrases so Tamsen, how does someone engage you? What does that look like that engagement?
Tamsen Webster 39:01
Sure. Well, a super easy, no cost way to just figure this people figure seven or get started on some of this first peoples themselves. And they can, there’s a redirect on my site, but they can just go to something called the conversationalcase.com. And it’s a quick worksheet for them to fill out that follows this kind of basic path. And what it does is it surfaces that story that you tell yourself and therefore potentially you can have that be the basis of the conversation you have with somebody else. So if people get that they’ll hear some of the phrases I was using with you Like when I speak to other salespeople with like you they often want to know, why am I not more successful? Well looking for that answer that kind of thing. But engagement with me almost always starts with something I call a red threads session which is which is typically takes place over the course of you know, I would say 60 to 60 days. You know, sometimes as little as a month. We’re over the course of a series of virtual sessions. What we’re doing is figuring out kind of all the pieces of that who are you talking to, what is it that you’re trying to get from them? And then doing in a much more extended way, that process that people heard today which is we have what is that question? What is that problem pair? What is that truth? What’s that change? What are the actions? Were kind of the other pieces? What specific steps can people take? And then when I’m working with people to capture that all in a specific deliverable, so sometimes that’s an outline of a sales conversation. I work a lot with startups and founders. So oftentimes, that’s the outline of of a pitch presentation or something along those lines. But that’s where most engagements start.
Umar Hameed 40:33
That is brilliant. And we’re going to put all of Tamsen’s connections at the bottom of this podcast. And thank you so much for a delightful conversation. It was enlightening and more so just getting a clear understanding of how you work and how you make this process of coming up with what is a clear message so easy to do. So thank you so much for spending time with me today.
Tamsen Webster 40:54
My pleasure Umar. Thanks so much for having me.
Umar Hameed 41:01
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