December 16

Larry Kihlstadius on Leadership Starts with Self-Awareness

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My Cause:  Guide leaders to be their best; one conversation at a time. Ask better questions. Drive a better culture. Commit to bold!

My Why: The simple belief that great leaders have a growth mindset. They love to be challenged and gain perspective. I believe being in a peer group is the most effective path to accomplish this outcome.

Pedigree? Sure, I have done some cool things. All American college wrestler and captain of the team at the United States Naval Academy.  Former Officer of Marines and served on the Commanding General’s staff as only a captain filling a colonel’s billet.  Leadership is my passion.  One of the early innovators in the Recruitment Process Outsourcing business as well as HR Outsourcing. Quality Blackbelt actually trained in the very last class taught by Joseph Juran himself...yes...I'm umm...experienced. Oh, and I surf to stay in touch with my young soul!

Proof statements? Established one of the first profitable RPO businesses in the world (became Sourceright bought by Randstad). Senior Executive at Accenture sold HR Outsourcing engagements with TCV over $1 Billion. Restructured marketing strategies and sales teams at Vistage International leading to strongest growth in history of the firm.

[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]

Umar Hameed 0:01
Are you ready to become awesomer? Hello everyone! My name is Umar Hameed, I'm your host on the No Limits Selling Podcast where industry leaders share their tips, strategies and advice on how you can become better, stronger, faster. Just before we get started, I've got a question for you, do you have a negative voice inside your head? We all do, right? I'm gonna help you remove that voice and under 30 days guaranteed, not only remove it, but transform it. So instead of the voice that sabotages you, there's one that propels you to much higher levels of performance and success. There's a link in the show notes, click on it to find out more. All right! Let's get started.

Umar Hameed 0:41
Hello, everyone to another episode of the No Limits Selling Podcast and today I've got the privilege of having LK here with me. And one things LK did was he took a startup in being employee number one and exited at $45 million, that is a neat trick, my friend. Welcome to the program.

Larry Kihlstadius 0:57
Thank you. Good to be here.

Umar Hameed 0:59
So let's go back to that initial company. When did it go from idea to execution.

Larry Kihlstadius 1:05
So it's interesting at the time, I was actually working for Monster when Monster was monster.

Umar Hameed 1:10
Yes.

Larry Kihlstadius 1:11
Superbowl commercial ads and all that in the late 90s. And unfortunately, the CEO Andrew McKelvey, no longer with us rest in peace, was much more focused on building the world's biggest yacht than doing anything super creative. And I'd come up with this idea that at the time, he had this intern to CEO concept, I was running a division, where we did those really high and hard searches for companies. And I said if we can do these, we can do everything. So I came up with this idea of why not outsource all of recruiting to a company that can do it better, faster, cheaper, with better capacity utilization than a corporate staff, Ken. So the target was really the you know, if you think about the global 2000, right? Well, he didn't want to hear it. I took the idea to another company. And they said, "Yes, we will fund that for 14 months," yeah, 14 months to make money. And as employee one, I started building a team, and while all three years later, it became something amazing and eventually Monster got it.

Umar Hameed 2:14
Brilliant. And it's, there's so many places in that journey that you could have given up. Tell me about one of those places where you were ready to give up at somehow talked yourself out of it that resiliency? Do you have one of those that comes to mind?

Larry Kihlstadius 2:28
Oh, many, many. So we had a moment with one of our clients, I'm not going to name the client, because it'll be embarrassing to them.

Umar Hameed 2:39
Bill Gates! Just kidding.

Larry Kihlstadius 2:39
Global company, big, big, big global company. We had we'd written the contract had the deal, we were actually operational. And the CHRO changed out and the new one came in and said, "Well, I want to add an assessment to the process," I said, "Fine, let me analyze this." Now to give you the scope, we were doing 15,000 hires a year for that.

Larry Kihlstadius 3:03
Wow.

Larry Kihlstadius 3:05
The candidate to hire ratio was about eight to one. And this 15-minute little assessment, then if you do the math, and let's just do easy math. Let's just pretend, you know, it was 10,000 extra, you know, 15 minutes sections? That's,

Umar Hameed 3:24
5,000 hours?

Larry Kihlstadius 3:25
Yeah, it's, it's, it's many, many hours. And so what I had to do, and by the way, that's just doing the assessment, not even setting up the assessment, and then reading the assessment back to the person. So I basically said, it's going to create minimal 45 minutes of extra time per candidate for my team, which means I've got to add staff at that scale at 15,000 hires a year. Well, she didn't want to do it. She said, "Oh, no, no, no, this is easy. You can do this," and I said, "Well, unless your team does it and just gives us the feedback. I'm not going to do it." She's said, "Well, I have no team [garbled], I said, "Fine. Here's what the incremental cost of this is," and by the way, I was doing it for cost. And we literally got into a battle of lawyers over the contract on this. SOW and I held my ground and was willing to give the client up which eventually a year later we did. She she conceded, but as soon as the the contract was up for renewal, she basically fired us. Which by the way is so ironic because I was friends with the company that took over from us. And their price point was harder than ours, but her ego was so big. She couldn't just say, "You were right. LK, I was wrong."

Umar Hameed 4:40
So what...

Larry Kihlstadius 4:40
Sometimes you gonna stand up to clients who don't be reasonable?

Umar Hameed 4:44
Absolutely. And but on the other side of the coin, from her point of view, and a mind reading here, that the sense of ego probably didn't come into the equation. That was the driver but from her perspective, I suspect it was like being righteous or not understanding, like, how do we delude ourselves, because I do it too and you probably do it too where we see the whole situation from a very narrow perspective. And somehow we're always the heroes of our own stories.

Larry Kihlstadius 5:13
That's so interesting, because it's exactly what this practice I'm in now does. It leans into the idea that your perspective is only your perspective, and that the best way to make the best decisions and become a better leader is deliberately gain other perspectives and be open to other perspectives.

Umar Hameed 5:33
I was working with this gentleman who, a sales guy for his company, and I asked him, "Tell me what you sell? How do you tell customers?" and it was the most laborious, horrible description of what they do, and it's like, "Okay?" And the CEO of the company was very charismatic, and articulate. I said, "Do me a favor, put on chips mask in your mind's eye and then tell me what you do," and instantly articulate powerful representation of what they do. And it's like, he always knew it, because chip actually was not there. But somehow, using that mask, mind hack allowed him to articulate so you already knew it, but he wasn't doing it. So what do you think is happening there inside someone when the knowledge is there, but their self image creates a result that is not as powerful as it could be?

Larry Kihlstadius 6:22
Well, it's exactly what you're talking about, we put on this armor. And we're afraid to let the armor be open. Because we think that shows weakness, and in reality, is it keeping the armor on is the big weakness being vulnerable is the strength. And you tell the story there about couldn't tell the tight story about what the company did. I have a little conversation I have with every new client candidate that wants to come into my practice. And listen, I'm not for everybody. And everybody's not for me, right? Here's what I tell them. I'm sitting at a bar, and you're sitting next to me. And I turned to you, and I asked, "What is it you do?" And what I'm actually looking for, is, do they share their cause with me? Or do they share their elevator corporate speak with me? And I tell them, if they give me the corporate elevator speak, I say, "Great," and I literally turned myself and now I'm turning to the other person at the bar, because you're not interested.

Umar Hameed 7:28
Right.

Larry Kihlstadius 7:28
And you give me a cause. And by the way, if you can do it in seven words, even better, I'm interested, I will then ask the question, how do you do that?

Umar Hameed 7:40
Absolutely. And...

Larry Kihlstadius 7:41
How do you do that.

Umar Hameed 7:42
So just gonna dissect that a little bit, is when I'm being the person you want me to be? And the elevator pitches that? How do we articulate what we do so the average dumbass understands it? When we go with cause we're revealing who we are.

Larry Kihlstadius 7:59
Yes.

Umar Hameed 8:00
And people can sense when you're being authentic. And it creates immediate connection and attention. And when you're just saying, you know, we are for the betterment of the environment, our employees and our customers is like [cough]

Larry Kihlstadius 8:16
Yeah, aren't we all.

Umar Hameed 8:20
And the other thing you mentioned was transparency and being vulnerable. I was at a wedding a few years ago, and the priest that was there was like 300, and some are people in the church, he comes on stage and says, "I just want all of you to know that the priest that was supposed to be here couldn't make it so they asked me to do it. And I just graduated from school," I can't say the words on the tip of my tongue, "at seminary school, and I'm kind of nervous," and 300 people in the audience connected with him, he did a phenomenal job. And rather than being a weakness, it became a strength that people want to help and connect when there's transparency. And when you try and be that superhero, people just look on.

Larry Kihlstadius 9:05
True. Exactly true.

Umar Hameed 9:08
So LK. Have there been times in your career where you were actually being that guy having the armor on? And when did you realize that was happening and how did you convert to be more authentic because it doesn't happen overnight, can you kind of share what went on there?

Larry Kihlstadius 9:24
Sadly, I think we still do it from time to time as much as we try not to. I do have the epiphany story for you, though.

Larry Kihlstadius 9:34
Thank you.

Larry Kihlstadius 9:34
I'm a young leader had just gotten out of the Marine Corps, finished some schooling, went went to this company that was growing like a weed. They'd locked into the home center channel when home centers were just starting to take off in the late 80s and early 90s. And I was promoted to run the SE and as part of my promotion. A year in they did a 360, to see how he's doing. And the CEO, this little guy from Alabama named Jake goes, "Oh, who's one of the greatest leaders I've ever worked for?" Calls me Killer, you know, obviously, so he calls me so he says, "Hey, Killer, little guy, big boys, right? Let's review this thing." And the thing that stuck out at me was a quote, LK is not as popular or liked as he thinks he is. And I thought to myself, but I'm not trying to be popular in life, I'm trying to run a business here. And that was a shield for myself. What I wasn't doing is accepting the fact that what was going on here is I had an aggrandized view of myself and how people viewed me as well. Of course, people, you know, want to be led by me because I'm fun and uncharismatic. And I'm all these things, and we're crushing it, right? I wasn't in their world, I was all about me. It was all about Larry's you know, LK success. It wasn't about the team, and how the team is doing and I wasn't leaning into a cause. And from there, I took a course in principle centered leadership. And it changed my world.

Umar Hameed 11:22
Absolutely, because I think that's where the power is, and the cause, please feel free to disagree with me. I think every single human being on planet Earth has a purpose in life. And once you uncover your purpose, and you can get your cost to align with it, you become a force of nature. It's when you take on the cause that you know, what's popular today is the weight saving the whales or doing this other kind of stuff, but the power of who we are as human beings is knowing your purpose, knowing your deepest values, knowing what your fears are, and knowing that you can accomplish anything.

Larry Kihlstadius 11:57
Hmm. 100% agree. One of my CEOs sums it up great, he has a personal mantra. And that is, Leave it better than I found it.

Umar Hameed 12:07
Yeah.

Larry Kihlstadius 12:07
Simple, but telling, right? leave it better than I found it.

Umar Hameed 12:12
Because if you dig into that, and you deconstruct that, it kind of instant thought that came up was the book, Good to Great. For a lot of those leaders, when they left the organization, the culture was such that the trajectory on the stock market as well as culture in the organization transcended their tenure.

Larry Kihlstadius 12:31
Right. I mean, and that's the true mark of leadership, right? Is, is what you did sustainable when you're not there.

Umar Hameed 12:37
But so much of life is very much it's about me. And there was a time in the world where I realized that the most important person in the entire world, you'll be shocked was actually me. And I truly may not be in a conscious thing. But at an unconscious level, he was ego driven. And I saw the world from my very, very narrow point of view. And one of the epiphanies for me it was it No, for me. For me, it's very much about the connection I can make with another human being if I can create that connection in such a way that I provide them a safe place where they can reveal themselves, that is my highest value, that's my superpower is the ability to do that. And it's not about me, it's not about me, it's about the connection that we create is crucial for me.

Larry Kihlstadius 13:30
And that's beautiful, right? That's so beautiful. I have a model for leadership, I called the organizational champion model. And the way I started off with is a simple question. What is the number one filter that as a leader, every decision you make, has to go through? And the answer is, and I let them, you know, let them twist in the wind and come up with their answer here. But the answer I'm looking for is very simple, "Is this good for the organization?" Period, is it large, right? And, and if it isn't, then I have to rethink the decision. Because it's not about my direct reports, it's not about my team within the organization, it's not about me, that's the last thing, it's about, "Is it good for the organization?" That is what you want and leaders.

Umar Hameed 14:21
Absolutely. And it kind of got to go back to you had mentioned you a part of the Marines.

Larry Kihlstadius 14:26
I was.

Umar Hameed 14:27
And so what's kind of interesting is before you went to the Marines, I suspect you are a different human being to after boot camp and joining joining your platoon. Because I think what happens I'm just kind of giving you my point of view is that you go from, "It's all about me to the platoon," and all of a sudden, the platoon is more important than you and you would do heroic things for your brothers and sisters-in-arm, more so than you do for yourself.

Larry Kihlstadius 14:57
Right.

Umar Hameed 14:57
It's a transition [garbled]

Larry Kihlstadius 15:02
So my transition there was a little different than the what you're just describing, because I actually went to Annapolis and spent four years at the Naval Academy and graduated and, and chose Marine Corps by service selection. You can choose your navy or Marines and I chose Marines. You learned the lesson you just described actually, during what they call plebe summer at the Naval Academy, where they basically create this environment where you cannot succeed without helping each other, and that's the exact same thing you're talking about, boot camp does the same thing it breaks you down is an individual to go to the greater good of the entire team, right? And one of the things that if you look at the Marines, the way they lead people, it's always the marine comes first. So if you go to a Marine Corps meal, and you're in the mess hall, the junior guys eat first.

Umar Hameed 15:57
Yup.

Larry Kihlstadius 15:57
The general goes to the back of the line, private walks in, he goes to the front of the line. It's serving the Marines first, when you go to the field, you take care of your Marines, bivouacking first, not yourself. And that, to me was what leadership is all about. You know, I tell people all the time when we talk about what's your cause, I say, "It's so funny," you know, think about a two word phrase in a dead language that the Marine Corps has is their cause, Semper Fi, and everybody knows it. It's always faithful.

Larry Kihlstadius 16:31
Yup.

Larry Kihlstadius 16:31
Always faithful. Will always faithful to what? Well, the Corps, your country, yourself, your platoon, it's always faithful. So here we go, we have one of the most famous causes in the world that almost everybody knows the Marine Corps, semper five, looks Logan. Most people actually don't know what it means.

Umar Hameed 16:50
Yep.

Larry Kihlstadius 16:50
But they, but they know it. And believe me, all the Marines know it. Simple is so great.

Umar Hameed 16:56
And I know a lot of Marines and this company called Medifast and the owner of that company passed away, but he was a Marine. But if he saw a Marine and need a homeless person, whatever, it was his duty to help, and he did it without acknowledgement, it was just part of who he is, and duty. And I think, and maybe I'm wrong here Marines tend to believe it, it's ingrained in their heart more so than some of the other armed forces.

Larry Kihlstadius 17:22
Well, I think that's 100%. And I will give a tip of the hat to a couple other areas in the armed forces, I think there's that same thing and the Army Rangers. And I think you see the same thing in Navy Seals. That secret that the Marines figured out, was remember, those are just little groups within a big organization. The Marines figured out how to make the whole organization be that tight. That's a trick.

Umar Hameed 17:46
By the way, I hate the Seals. And I'll tell you why I hate those guys, [garbled]. And when the Marines go jogging by my wife was not looking at me anymore. She was...So

Larry Kihlstadius 18:00
Yeah, that Seals are in some kind of save, aren't they?

Umar Hameed 18:03
They are. And so you've got a sense of what leadership is. So here's my theory on leadership. And then we'll kind of navigate into Vistage because I think, you know, it and you transplanting it in other CEOs to get them to execute, as well as a magic trick we need to talk about, but very much, you know, for a leader, I think in basic terms, it's having a compelling vision that inspires people to move beyond their limitations and fears and go you know what, "Okay, this is a fight worth doing. I want to make that happen." Second thing is building a culture where people put the organization before themselves, and that kind of goes up against the grain of what who human beings are oftentimes it's all about us. And then the third, third thing is long term shareholder value, how do we create this organization that's more valuable? So A, would you agree that's half decent definition of leadership? And what would you add to it or subtract?

Larry Kihlstadius 19:03
So I'm going to give a simple definition. And unfortunately, I really hate this, it's a Westpoint guy that came up with it so darnos army guys, Dwight Eisenhower, General Eisenhower, "The art of leadership is getting people to want to do what must be done." And I love that for so many reasons. First of all, leadership is an art. It was a science, everybody could figure it out, it's an art. Getting people to want to do, getting people to go all in. But more importantly of everything, you have to define what must be done as a leader because it has to be wanting to do what must be done. So therefore, job one for the leaders define what must be done. I call it in my organizational champion model. It's the set expectation space.

Umar Hameed 19:59
Yup.

Larry Kihlstadius 20:00
Clarity. Clear. And by the way, Simon Sinek. I disagree here. He says always start with a why? Well, I will argue with him even in his TED talk, the computer sat there, the what existed before he went to the why?

Umar Hameed 20:14
Yup.

Larry Kihlstadius 20:15
So I say you start with what, then you explain the why. And then you have to get into the how. And it just goes to what you just said.

Umar Hameed 20:24
Simon Sinek is total genius. But I also think having a slogan, and a why for the organization, is meaningless unless you can imprint it in people's hearts. And that leadership is about and you know, thinking differently, I'm not sure every single Apple employee agreed with that, they certainly thought it was cool. So right now you're dealing with CEOs that have the issues that they're dealing with. And you say, okay, you know, here is a structure to help you become the best person you can be so you can lead your organization that way. But a lot of people are gonna say, "Okay, you just don't understand." So how do you transcend that from what they know, to what they need to know?

Larry Kihlstadius 21:06
Well, so first of all, it's awareness, right? First of all, it's awareness. And if you don't have awareness, you can't fix anything.

Umar Hameed 21:20
Right.

Larry Kihlstadius 21:20
So therefore, you have to start with awareness, right? And...

Umar Hameed 21:25
If you don't have awareness, is that called underwareness? No, probably not.

Larry Kihlstadius 21:31
It's so it's, it's always the starting point. If I don't know where I'm starting from

Umar Hameed 21:37
Your last.

Larry Kihlstadius 21:39
I can't get to the journey. You know, it's it's the North Star, right? It's still the North Star, you're still going to the North Star but I gotta, I have to know where I'm starting from,

Umar Hameed 21:46
Absolutely.

Larry Kihlstadius 21:47
Lead the people to get there. And I just did this retreat for our leadership team. And it was really interesting when I did the "What's your expectation for each of the leaders in the room?" so there's, you know, the C suite for this company's eight people. And one of the leaders said, "I want to walk out of this meeting with true north," and I love that.

Umar Hameed 22:10
Yeah.

Larry Kihlstadius 22:11
You know, let's walk out of our meetings to true north.

Umar Hameed 22:15
Absolutely. But I think that the initial thing you said, you know, can be lost. And I literally meant to say that is, when you don't know where you are, it doesn't make a difference if you know, the Northstar, I think you articulated that. And I think people lose sight of, we have a notion of where we are, and we have a reality of where we are. So how do you get people to really take a look at, "Oh, my God, we're actually over here and not."

Larry Kihlstadius 22:40
So I have a phrase. And it's, it's, I call it Life Principle Number One, accept reality as it is. And sometimes this is really hard for CEOs. Because what happens a CEO, everybody tells them what they want to hear. It's really tough to find organization where people speak truth to power.

Umar Hameed 23:03
Absolutely.

Larry Kihlstadius 23:03
So the CEO thinks I have this bright, shiny, beautiful object. And the reality is, it's a little dusty, it's a little tarnished, and it might have a dent or to. Accept reality as it is.

Umar Hameed 23:15
I was doing a leadership retreat, and we're discussing some real issues. And the CEOs, like, "Come on, can we move on, I'm getting a headache," and then one of the people noticed in his executive team, "You always do that. Whenever we get something uncomfortable, you get headache, and we need to move on," and I don't think the CEO knew he did that, because oftentimes, we're blind to our own behaviors. But it was like a breakthrough moment for that retreat, because in the past, people would have gone "Okay, let's pull back and let's talk," because we need to talk about the real issues. And a lot of times that's way uncomfortable, because I was really shocked to find out I'm not as good looking as I think, that was a joke, by the way.

Larry Kihlstadius 23:55
I got it, I got it. It's a how do you how do you tell the CEO? Their baby isn't beautiful, right?

Umar Hameed 24:05
Yeah.

Larry Kihlstadius 24:06
Well, you can't they have that. You have to ask questions to get them to see it. They have to come to the reality. They have to accept it.

Umar Hameed 24:15
And that is the art you bring to the table is what's amazing is this, I love intention. It's like so powerful, because I could say something really rude to you LK right now. And my if my intent was noble, that you would take in a totally different way than if my intent was to be like, a bad actor. And oftentimes, when when you gather a leadership team, and you ask those really tough questions, your intent is so critically important, because if it isn't quite right, what is perceived not right, it can set a team back really really far, but if it's taken right people actually look within an answer. So How do you, coz you're CEOs need to do that with their charges, how do you teach them that?

Larry Kihlstadius 25:05
Socratic method. It's always about asking questions.

Umar Hameed 25:11
Yeah.

Larry Kihlstadius 25:12
If they come to it themselves, it's different than if I give them the answer.

Umar Hameed 25:16
That's true.

Larry Kihlstadius 25:17
I didn't tell them, here's, here's your solution. So I have to lead them through questions to see and get perspective, because that's the only way they're going to own it.

Umar Hameed 25:27
So let me push back on that just a little bit.

Larry Kihlstadius 25:29
Sure.

Umar Hameed 25:30
Oftentimes, I've seen in leadership teams, sometimes questions are used, like weapons, with a question isn't designed to illuminate is designed to spotlight where you're screwing up. And so asking questions with the right intent, allows people not to take become defensive and actually see it, and that is art. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is, how best to do that. I come at it from a very heartfelt, I want to make connection, but I'm not sure I can teach that so easily to other people, or that they want to learn in the first place.

Larry Kihlstadius 26:03
So here's, here's what happens, is they have to think and know that you care, that you're doing this out of an out of a good

Umar Hameed 26:12
Price.

Larry Kihlstadius 26:13
There your whole your whole idea is to have a good outcome. So in this stage, we have a term for that, and we call it care frontation, right? I care, so I'm going to confront the situation, I'm going to ask questions, because we all need clarity. And we all need to make sure we're going down the right path. So let's let's really dig in and gain all the perspective we can gain. I often coach the CEOs when they have someone on their C suite who's always the devil's advocate,

Umar Hameed 26:46
Right.

Larry Kihlstadius 26:48
don't allow that person to be a devil's advocate by just challenging and saying here, all the obstacles. It's as soon as that person pipes up, they now own it. Alright, so how do you overcome it, you own the solution? You own the solution. And making them paint outcomes, before they give obstacles, is a great secret sauce for getting people to buy in better. Because anybody can be an eye, you know, I'm not trying to be [garbled] here, but anybody can be a devil's advocate. It's easy to see obstacles. It's hard to see how to overcome them.

Umar Hameed 27:29
I was watching. I'm not sure if you ever saw this movie, History of the World Part 1, Mel Gibson? No, Mel Brooks.

Larry Kihlstadius 27:37
Oh, if yes.

Umar Hameed 27:38
It's a comedy but there was this one that I love. It's caveman and he uses a stick from the fire to draw something on the cave wall. And it goes, World's Great Artists. There's a guy on a boulder looking at it, and he lifts his for loincloth up, and you're an ace on the art and coasts, world's first critic.

Larry Kihlstadius 27:56
Oh.

Umar Hameed 27:57
Because it's so easy to criticize. But I really like outcome first, and I did an interview earlier on today, and the gentleman had described this, I said you know, "What some advice you can give leaders," he goes, "Stay humble. Stay hungry." And I like that humble part first, because that's all about, it's not about me, it's about the organization that we're building. So what's the biggest lesson you've learned from Vistage helping CEOs do better? When we teach we also learn what's one lesson you want to share with our viewers and listeners?

Larry Kihlstadius 28:29
It's never about the answers. It's always about the questions.

Umar Hameed 28:33
Love it. And is there a book you would recommend that they read?

Larry Kihlstadius 28:36
Oh, interesting. I think Jim Collins latest book, which is Entrepreneur 2.0

Umar Hameed 28:48
Interesting.

Larry Kihlstadius 28:50
It is big, is basically his greatest hits. All in one book. And it is an amazing read. And there's just life lesson after life lessons leadership lesson after each lesson, by the way, that's where I saw the definition of leadership is in that book.

Umar Hameed 29:08
Brilliant.

Larry Kihlstadius 29:08
It says, here's, here's Eisenhower's, he's big, big on what's your cause. He always talks about levels of leadership. And he has this thing about leadership level five, which is it's never about me, it's always about the cause [garbled]

Umar Hameed 29:24
Brilliant. And I'll recommend a book to you if you've not read it is so Will Smith's Biography.

Larry Kihlstadius 29:30
Oh.

Umar Hameed 29:31
I'm just starting that and is just one of the things that he's always said is, there's way better actors than me in Hollywood, but no one's ever gonna outwork me. And you kind of figure out where that came from his kind of upbringing, it was like totally brilliant.

Larry Kihlstadius 29:45
Yep.

Umar Hameed 29:45
LK. Thank you so much for being on the show. I learned a lot and I really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm looking forward to our next.

Larry Kihlstadius 29:52
You bet. Thank you so much. Take care.

Umar Hameed 30:00
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. And if you're looking for more tools, go to my website at nolimitsselling.com. I've got a free mind training course there, that's going to teach you some insights from the world of neuro-linguistic programming and that is the fastest way to get better results.


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