Chris Mechanic is the CEO and Co-Founder at @WebMechanix. Chris was recently selected as a finalist by Ernst & Young for their Entrepreneur of the Year award. Chris and his partner (Arsham Mirshah) started WebMechanix in the basement of the family home in 2009. They have grown Webmechanix into a prominent digital agency in the Mid-Atlantic region.
- Add a zero to your price. People will pay more than you think.
- Serve people instead of selling to them.
- Making guarantees, When you take a risk the rewards are huge
- Focus on what distinguishes you from others.
- Speaking the same language, use the same metrics for sales to the marketing.
- Focus. Limit the number of initiatives that you take on to one or two at a time.
[Podcast Transcript Using Artificial Intelligence]
Umar Hameed 0:00
Are you ready to become smarter? Hi, everyone. This is Umar Hameed and welcome to the No Limits Selling Podcast, where sales leaders share their insights and ideas on how to make us better, stronger, faster. And today I'm privileged to have Chris mechanic here, the CEO of Web Mechanics. Chris, welcome to the program.
Chris Mechanic 0:17
Thank you are really excited to be here.
Umar Hameed 0:20
So Chris, in 90 seconds, tell us who you are and what you do.
Chris Mechanic 0:23
Sure. Yes, I'm co founder and CEO, Web Mechanics, Web Mechanics is a performance based marketing and advertising firm. I like to say we basically help our clients get the phone's ringing and the cash registers dinging. So we do online advertising on Facebook, Google ads, we do a lot of analytics, a lot of testing of different landing pages and things like that. In a prior world, I was self employed just internet entrepreneur, right. And I was recruited into the agency space. And once I saw how, you know, things were being done, I said, hey, let's give it a shot. Let's see if...
Umar Hameed 0:56
I can do it better.
Chris Mechanic 0:57
I can do better. Exactly.
Umar Hameed 0:58
That is awesome.
Chris Mechanic 0:59
classic story, right?
Umar Hameed 1:01
So we're gonna dig deeper into what you guys do. Because from one point of view, it looks pretty, pretty easy. And the reality is, it's frickin hard. It's like Voodoo to figure out what people are thinking out there on the other side of the ad to get them to take action, right that you want other than ignore.
Chris Mechanic 1:17
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the messaging pieces, like, you know, can be Voodoo, but also just the technicalities of the platforms themselves. These days, like the Facebook advertising platform, has fast become pretty much the world's most complex self service advertising system. There's so many bells and whistles and little pitfalls. Same with Google AdWords. Same with Google Analytics, really. But of course, they're done. They're made by Google and Facebook, and an army of the smartest engineers that you've ever met. And it's literally just designed to make you spend money. Yeah. So if you don't know what you're doing on the technical side of the back end, it's just like, so that's sort of the ying and yang thing that I like, what's his like? You know, the ad copy? And the messaging is the..
Umar Hameed 1:59
Chris Mechanic 1:59
..and then the...
Umar Hameed 1:59
...art and the science.
Chris Mechanic 2:01
Umar Hameed 2:02
Brilliant. So Chris, who is your favorite superhero? And why?
Chris Mechanic 2:08
Favorite superhero? You know, I gotta go Superman. Man. I gotta go Superman. I know, it's a boring answer. But Superman is, this is a Superman. He's got his girl. He's got Lois Lane. He's got his day job. And then he just, he's got his suit under there. And he just goes, flying, he can cut.
Umar Hameed 2:25
But just remember he does not have a girl. Well, he unrequited love at first. So what motivates you what gets you up in the morning? What gets you to execute like, today is a holiday and you came in to promote your business and have a conversation with me. So what motivates you?
Chris Mechanic 2:44
I mean, I'm just gonna be honest, everybody always talks about these things. This dollar, baby. I need that dollar. Everybody else? No, seriously, um, I am obviously motivated by money. I think most sales people are. But what's really gratifying, surprisingly gratifying. And growing web mechanics is seeing people come into the organization, very green, very new. So employees, employees, yeah, not knowing anything. And oftentimes having difficulty getting any jobs, they graduated with marketing or business degree or whatever. But within a year, two years, three years, recruiters are banging down their door, and they're all of a sudden, very, very good. Just, you know, having learned through here, so seeing people grow and progress and you know, basic, you know, go from kind of zero to hero almost is very gratifying.
Umar Hameed 3:31
And it's nice. And that's a good sign of leadership, because ultimately is how do we get people to go beyond the limitations right, and reach their potential?
Chris Mechanic 3:39
Umar Hameed 3:40
So who's your mentor?
Chris Mechanic 3:42
You know, I've been fortunate enough to have many mentors over the years. My very first mentor was a guy named Andy Waller, this was, so I sold insurance basically, right? Aflac. When I was like, 1617 years old, that was my first real sales job. And and he just, you know, he took me under his wing, he bought me my first suit. And he taught me basically about bolt calling and fullcycle selling right there via insurance. Brilliant. Sounds cool.
Umar Hameed 4:08
So if you could have lunch with anybody living from history, a character from a book, like who would that one person be? And what question would you ask them?
Chris Mechanic 4:17
You know, who would be honestly, if you know this person, but it would be padam Honza Yogananda. This guy, he wrote The Autobiography of a Yogi.
Umar Hameed 4:26
Of a Yogi.
Chris Mechanic 4:27
Umar Hameed 4:28
Yes, I know who he is. And there's a great documentary on Netflix. If you've not seen it, you must see
Chris Mechanic 4:33
I have seen that but I would love to meet him. Actually, you know, I would really love to meet Jesus. If I'm if I can just choose anybody.
Umar Hameed 4:41
But Yogananda there's a quote from him that I really like. It was like when he first came to America to kind of bring yoga and meditation to the west. He came to an airport that was carpeted, and he said, These people live in Paradise, but they're too busy with their lives to notice because this is bigger than My village and is carpeted and. and heated is like pretty amazing.
Chris Mechanic 5:04
Umar Hameed 5:05
So you already mentioned your first real sales job was Aflac. So what did you learn there that still serves you today?
Chris Mechanic 5:13
You know, I learned about hustle, I learned about rejection, because it was a full cycle sales job. So you would start by basically building pipe so I would have to make 30 4050 sometimes even more calls just to get people on the phone, let alone convince them to let an assignment young kid come in and talk to their, you know, probably elderly employee base about like hospitalization and cancer insurance people would look at me like I'm crazy. They're like, what the hell do you know about Cancer man like you're can't even grow a mustache?
Umar Hameed 5:44
The I was talking to this young lady. And she was saying, well, her first cold call. It was at Aflac, and a manager was there and it was the first one she was doing herself. And the guy she called said, You're the eighth Aflac person that's called me this week. And you keep on calling me and then he started swearing in her and it was the worst call ever. And she's just deer in the headlights and she gets over it. And so the guy says congratulations, that will be the worst call you'll ever do. Everything is up from here, baby.
Chris Mechanic 6:13
Yeah, but then um, you know, I've always been fascinated. So prior to Aflac, I've always been drawn to sales.
Umar Hameed 6:19
Chris Mechanic 6:20
To the tune of like an eighth grade, for instance, it was jewelry was all popular, like men would wear these chains, it was kind of inspired by,
Umar Hameed 6:27
Very Italian. Yeah.
Chris Mechanic 6:29
or the Italian.
Umar Hameed 6:29
A different generations. Sorry, it was the hip hop era.
Chris Mechanic 6:32
Fall into it. And I found the source of gold plated jewelry, which looked and felt exactly like, you know, the real thing or 18 karat gold. And it held up really well. So I would wear it and people started asking me about it. So then I began selling that, you know, I would just go and buy for very cheap, and I would double or triple the price. And it was still much cheaper than real gold. But I was selling that in eighth grade. And so I think one of the key learning lessons that I had, there was basically if you can find something and procure it for a certain amount of money, and then sell it for more. That's like the easiest way to make money. business. So um, so that and also to pay attention to demand. So people were asking me, Hey, where'd you get that chain? And then I'll just oh, well, you all want.
Umar Hameed 7:17
So basic business stuff that sometimes people lose sight off? Yeah, by getting too fancy. So what's the best deal you ever had? The best deal ever had?
Chris Mechanic 7:27
You know, I've struck a lot of good deals. And honestly, so I have this deal right now. And it's funny, because I'm not getting paid anything for zero dollars. So there's this client, their startup, you know, SAS company out of the Northern Virginia area. And so they call me in for an appointment, and we're talking and we're getting along well, and both of us are getting all excited. And the buyer goes, the only thing is I don't have any money right now. I'm raising money. And I was like, Well, what the heck. So I spoke with one of my business partners about it. And it turns out that this guy's like the most connected.
Umar Hameed 8:04
Human being the most I know who this is, by the way.
Chris Mechanic 8:06
Yeah. So I said, Okay, fine. We'll we'll do a deal. But let us use your software and let us and once we kill it, you know, once you're enjoying the service than the evangelist, be an evangelist for even more specifically, I was like, send us five good referrals a month. Yeah. And we're like tracking it. And so, you know, within just a couple months, we did indeed start killing it, the chart started saying in and the phone started ringing, and they're starting to sing our praises. And now, now, two of the hottest deals in my pipeline right now are from that early, and I expect both of them to close. And it's largely on the strength of the endorsement from this person. So deals like that. I like that. And performance based deals out, like straight cash deals are kind of boring, is this.
Umar Hameed 8:53
Nice. So tell me about you mentioned you wanted to meet Jesus, but tell me about a come to Jesus moment in your business career, where it was like, Oh, my God, I need to change what I'm doing. This is not working to me about one of those.
Chris Mechanic 9:06
So you know, in the earlier days, there was a period where I was kind of I kind of thought of myself as this hot shot sales guy, you know, us I was used sales tactics, I would use some pressure tactics. Sometimes I would use like bait and switch takeaways like all these kind of sales tactics. And it was working in when we were selling to very, very small businesses. But then as we started selling into larger businesses, those types of techniques would turn them off. And it took me a while to realize this. But, you know, one day I just looked my pipeline was dry. I didn't have a lot of people calling we had some clients and they were happy. But it was almost as if anytime I had a meeting like I never would get follow ups. And then one of my one of the prospects that I was pitching to was kind enough to pull me aside and say, Hey, man, like tone it down a little bit like you know what you're doing. You don't have to rely on these sleazy sales tactics like I really learned,
Umar Hameed 9:59
Transparent to us.
Chris Mechanic 10:01
Yes, I read this blog post called from selling to serving. And, and that's just basically about adjusting the mindset from like, closing a prospect. Yeah. Doesn't that sound so like, you know, war like, it's like, it's like a fight, acquiring a prospect like what you don't acquire people. you attract them, right? Yes. So so that we kidnapped them? Or Yeah, that's another story. So um, that really caused a jolt for me. I was like depressed, you know, for a little while about it, I was all sad. But then it changed my perspective. And I've since closed, you know, 10s of millions of dollars in business.
Umar Hameed 10:41
So if you can find that article, and we'll put the link on this podcast, so you can actually other people can read it, too.
Chris Mechanic 10:47
Yeah, I know exactly where it is.
Umar Hameed 10:48
So tell me about a deal that you saved from the jaws of death?
Chris Mechanic 10:53
A deal. I mean, it's pretty much everyday deal of death. I mean, over the nine years since we started, or eight years since we started web mechanics, it has gotten so super competitive like writing viously, it was just what we would call the 600 a month ers who would come and say, Hey, we'll do everything for 599. But like, they're pretty easy to sell against, or the bigger agencies. So we had this nice little sweet spot. But these days, I'm telling you, man, it's fiercely competitive. Yeah. And, and I don't know that there's a deal that I've, I feel like every deal, you have to save it.
Umar Hameed 11:28
So kind of goes back to what you said earlier, like that deal you did with a person who shall not be named. That was a strategic move. Like I need somebody with lots of notoriety, high trust level to do those introductions and their deals that no one else can take, because they don't have that endorsement.
Chris Mechanic 11:47
Yeah. And you know, if I've ever saved a deal from the jaws of death, otherwise, the way that I've done it is by essentially making guarantees, but,
Umar Hameed 11:59
Performance, another word that you've used a lot.
Chris Mechanic 12:02
Because the thing is, everybody said everybody that does search engine marketing, so they all talk the same game, everybody sounds the same. How do you distinguish yourself? Well, I feel for the buyers, honestly, because they can't distinguish it either. They're just like, Whoa, well, these guys sound the same. This guy wants 10 grand a month, this guy's talking about five 599 bucks a month, like,
Umar Hameed 12:23
What's the disconnect?
Chris Mechanic 12:24
Let's give this guy 1000 bucks. Right?
Umar Hameed 12:25
Chris Mechanic 12:26
So I do that in a couple of ways. I take a very educational approach. I literally will open up my laptop, I'll say, hey, let's look at your website. Let's get into your Google Analytics. Let me show you some things. And I will show them things and sometimes get the comment. Oh, my God, like I've been working with this agency for two years. And they haven't showed me anything like this. So I think, to differentiate, really, I tried to take an educational approach to demonstrate my savviness to tell stories, right? You know, things like that. But at the end of the day, sometimes it comes down to two things. And I say, look, if it's price, that's that's the issue, don't let it be because I will, you know, if this isn't a win for you, it's not a win for us. And we don't want you as a client. So I have been known to make guarantees, which some people think is crazy. But hey, I'm confident we got an excellent team and like 90% plus of our clients are happy. So if it takes a little bit of risk to get the reward, I'll do it
Umar Hameed 13:24
Makes perfect sense. So looking at the sales profession as a whole now, because it's a different landscape than it was 10 years ago. Yeah. So what's the biggest challenge facing companies today as it comes to acquiring new clients selling?
Chris Mechanic 13:39
So I think a couple of things, most companies suck at marketing. Me included. Yeah. So they have these gifted salespeople who spend most of their time prospecting and setting appointments or running earlier nights and qualify. So I think that that really is the biggest challenge for a lot of them. And that's really what we do at our business is like providing a steady lead of inbound or slowly flow of leads. Yeah, so that your salespeople can sell instead of whatever they're doing digging through the CRM, or the phone book, and just makes perfect sense two calls a day.
Umar Hameed 14:13
Because On the flip side, consumers are doing all their research up front before they even talk to a salesperson. So if you can be in that flow, then you actually align with the customer's buying process.
Chris Mechanic 14:23
Yeah, and, you know, related challenge is the sales and marketing conundrum. Yes, in order for the salespeople to be free, they need their marketers to perform, right. And in order for the marketers to post good returns they need to sell. But there's a silo.
Umar Hameed 14:39
Always so here's a question for you that I've not asked anybody yet on these podcasts. So what is the superset and what is a subset? Is sales a subset of marketing or vice versa?
Chris Mechanic 14:51
That's a tough question, you know, I think both of them are subsets of something called creating a customer Hmm. So I I don't know that you can say one or the other because it's like the beginning of the process versus the end. But I think both of them are subsets on the same level of a different thing that's bigger. Okay. That makes cool.
Umar Hameed 15:11
From my point of view, I always saw it as marketing was a superset. Because they help identify what customers want, where the customers are. Sometimes they suck at it, sorry, markers. And then the salespeople do the execution. But soon as they do the execution is back to marketing again, to how do we keep that customer as part of our family? And what do we need to know? And but yeah, there's way too many companies where there's silos and bitter enemies.
Chris Mechanic 15:36
Umar Hameed 15:36
If only the leads, you gave me What better? And it's like, we give you all these leads, and you guys suck at closing.
Chris Mechanic 15:41
Umar Hameed 15:43
So you have to set expectations for yourselves people, and you've been in organizations, we've got people that you answer to. So how would you advise someone that has a C suite that they need to answer to? And they've got a bunch of salespeople that need to execute? How do you set expectations for both groups, in order that you get your job done?
Chris Mechanic 16:03
I see, I think the key to that is common metrics. So if everybody's speaking the same language, in terms of the metrics, and it doesn't have to be a lot of metrics are a very fancy dashboard. But if everybody speaks the same in terms of metrics, which in sales, it might sound like appointments, opportunities, deals and pipe deals, closed deals, closed loss, you know, things like that. If everybody from the C level on down to the new sales guy, and in between speaks the same language, that it helps tremendously. And what you can do to really set expectations on both sides, is for the C suite have a simple report that's not long or not difficult to read, that just has your main numbers really front and center,
Umar Hameed 16:43
Chris Mechanic 16:44
So that you can create an understanding, hey, this is how we track success. And then take those same exact numbers and stick them on the sales floor. You know, like, if you're so inclined to have some kind of dynamic dashboard, where when people log in CRM, it populates. That's great. If you want to do an old school style, just grab a whiteboard and start a tally. But that way, everybody knows what the primary goals are. And everybody knows where they're at. And any good.
Umar Hameed 17:09
Right. So the same landscape, we're looking at the same metrics makes perfect sense.
Chris Mechanic 17:13
Keep it simple, I like to keep things really simple.
Umar Hameed 17:16
So what's the best advice you've ever gotten?
Chris Mechanic 17:18
Keep it simple. No, I'm just kidding, man. best advice I've ever gotten, that's really tough. I'd have to say, Oh, that's it. When going into business, get a partner to do with you, who has, who's the Yin to your Yang Yang has complementary skill sets.
Umar Hameed 17:41
And you found that person.
Chris Mechanic 17:42
I absolutely did. I grew up with that person, actually. So my partner arsham. I've known him since literally birth, I'm like six months older, roughly. And we've embarked on various little entrepreneurial adventures over the years. But when I was getting ready to make an exit from agency life and start my own, he happened to have or be graduating from college at that same time,
Umar Hameed 18:05
Chris Mechanic 18:05
And he was with a startup at the time, but he was ready to leave. So he said, hey, let's do it. And that, honestly, Omar was probably the best advice I've ever gotten. And the best decision that I've ever made. There's no way. I mean, maybe there's some businesses that can be run with a single partner, but in this business, like I would have been dead in the water within a year.
Umar Hameed 18:25
So nobody can be the visionary and the detail person.
Chris Mechanic 18:28
Umar Hameed 18:28
Chris Mechanic 18:29
It's, it's there's so much that goes into running a business.
Umar Hameed 18:33
Especially when you got like a bunch of folks. So how do you motivate your sales team?
Chris Mechanic 18:38
You know, honestly, we use a lot of your material. We use like visualizations, we use objects. And like anytime an appointment is set, for instance, you bring them back in the day, we would ring a bell now we only ring it when there's a sale. And the operations team always gets like nervous because you know, just a bell rings. So we do a lot of motivation, or a lot of you know, visualization, a lot of kind of pep talks in the morning. And then we bring speakers into nice we did with you.
Umar Hameed 19:08
And you've got a like having spoken here, it was like a really hungry group of people want to learn stuff, which is really cool. Like how do we do better? And that's kind of your culture here, which is..
Chris Mechanic 19:18
Yes. Absolutely. One of the one of our core values that's held up the best over the years is learning to Holic because in our business, you either learn here or you just so people that are attracted to work here are oftentimes, like, learn holics true to form.
Umar Hameed 19:34
So how important is the right mindset to selling?
Chris Mechanic 19:38
Extremely important, extremely, extremely important. It's probably the most important thing and this is something that as I grow, I get much better at right because when we were first starting, like I didn't, we didn't have a lot of customers we really didn't have a lot of case studies so we kind of had to fake it till we make it,
Umar Hameed 19:58
Chris Mechanic 19:59
And There are times where I'll go into a big deal to pitch. And I'm a little nervous, honestly, like, I'm slightly intimidated, like, this is a $500 million company or billion dollar company. But it's critically important to remember your value. And to not underestimate or undersell yourself. I used to, we have this thing we call it noob syndrome, which is when somebody is really new, they automatically assume that everybody else knows more than they do. Yep. But then as you grow, you realize that nobody knows what they're doing.
Umar Hameed 20:30
Yeah. Like in making soap. Don't kick our butts.
Chris Mechanic 20:33
Umar Hameed 20:34
But in getting customers and marketing that's we dominate. Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Mechanic 20:37
Right. Right. So yeah, mindset is incredibly important. And it's important also to this part of mindset, but to not be overly needy or desperate, like you have to be willing to walk away from any deal at any point.
Umar Hameed 20:50
Chris Mechanic 20:51
And be fine with it. You know, if that ruins your day, then,
Umar Hameed 20:54
So be it. So that's just like being in a potential romantic relationships. If you're too needy and clingy people run away from you.
Chris Mechanic 21:01
Umar Hameed 21:02
The people that don't you should run away from them.
Chris Mechanic 21:04
Yeah. And, and people are smart man, people are intuitive. They can sense that
Umar Hameed 21:08
Oh, big time. So what's something you know, now that you wish you knew 10 years ago, that would have helped you be a better leader, better sales guy?
Chris Mechanic 21:17
At a zero, people will pay more than than what you typically think they will. If you do a good job building the value behind something if you did a good job understanding their unique scenario, and putting something custom together just for them. Like they value it a lot. So whatever price tag you have in mind.
Umar Hameed 21:35
At a zero, Yeah. So we do highlights of the this what you're gonna learn in the podcast, and that's going to be the number one piece of advice at a zero. So part of your job is, you know, being a leader for this group of how many people in your company
Chris Mechanic 21:49
Umar Hameed 21:50
30. So what's a piece of advice you would give other leaders to get the most out of their, their employees?
Chris Mechanic 21:58
So I would say, and this is something that I'm learning right now, I'm not an expert of this, but this is like my latest leadership kind of thing is focus limit the number of initiatives to like one or two initiatives,
Umar Hameed 22:13
Chris Mechanic 22:13
time, maybe one or two sub initiatives. But multitasking is not a good thing. People say multitask, I'm a great multitasker. That means you're wasting time. We had a consultant come in and we did this exercise where we're like ripping paper. It's a long story, but...
Umar Hameed 22:31
But it drove the point home.
Chris Mechanic 22:32
Umar Hameed 22:32
I think there's a bunch of research now that shows multitasking actually makes sure that you do mediocre and a bunch of things. It's just one.
Chris Mechanic 22:39
Yeah. And as a leader, I think that most entrepreneur, entrepreneurs have a tendency toward multitasking because when you're starting something, you have to do anything, there's a lot and do many things. So as you grow, you know you have you have a tendency to maintain that habit. But it doesn't work. At a certain point. You have to have focus. Because if you're scatterbrained all over the place, then how do you think everybody else is going to feel
Umar Hameed 23:04
Chris Mechanic 23:05
So that's really my big thing right now. Can I've been? Yeah, I've been focusing on focus for like a few weeks and already seeing a huge improvement.
Umar Hameed 23:13
Chris Mechanic 23:15
I don't remember what the exact question was, but
Umar Hameed 23:17
That's close enough. It was like, oh, what's something you shared with other leaders? And you were saying, hey, focus on a few things rather than multitask and do a bunch of stuff?
Chris Mechanic 23:26
Umar Hameed 23:27
So Chris, as we wind this thing down, what's a must read book that salespeople or leaders should be reading?
Chris Mechanic 23:35
Salespeople? My sales Bible is the new conceptual selling by Miller Heiman,
Umar Hameed 23:41
Chris Mechanic 23:42
Do you, are you familiar with...
Umar Hameed 23:42
No, I'll look, I'll add it to my list.
Chris Mechanic 23:44
Right there on the shelf. It's the blue one with red. But it's Robert Miller and I think Thomas Hyman,
Umar Hameed 23:51
Chris Mechanic 23:51
these guys, they break it down to a science they provide that book provides all types of tactical advice and like little planning worksheets, they really take their sales seriously. And it's written in you know, nice, succinct language, that's easy to understand. So that's my, that's my number one sales book. Number one leadership book, like things such as Good to Great come to mind.
Umar Hameed 24:16
Chris Mechanic 24:17
But there's another one. Well, a couple others, there's one called make the noise go away. And it's all about for a second in command, like what a second and Kryon should do for the CEO to basically help them to focus have that focus. And then there's there's one other one that I really like, which is applicable for both sales and marketing, which is called the Ultimate Guide to mental toughness and that's NLP pays
Umar Hameed 24:44
Chris Mechanic 24:44
Yeah. Well, it doesn't I should maybe it does mention NLP.
Umar Hameed 24:49
but you can see it throughout
Chris Mechanic 24:51
Yeah. It compares the brain to a computer and the subconscious to like the you know, the deep memory and then the local ram
Umar Hameed 24:58
Chris Mechanic 24:58
The you know, to the conscious Mind and it gives it provides tools basically NLP techniques. But I was introduced to that a long, long time ago. And I set up this one routine which I still do to this day in my head and I like anchored it you know, so it's nice. So yeah, that's a that was an approachable and your your books are really good too.
Umar Hameed 25:21
Chris, thanks so much for taking time today to have this conversation. I got a lot out of it and I'm gonna focus from now on.
Chris Mechanic 25:27
Yeah, good. Yeah, you gotta.
Umar Hameed 25:29
Thanks so much.
Chris Mechanic 25:30
Thank you, Umar.